Electric car thread

[Jerry_Atrick]

Hey - welcome to the forum, Derek (are you on the sister site - recreationalflying.com).

 

Yeah it was a long time ago, and yes, the link was not what the original event was thinking about.

 

You are right, manufacturers often have many decades of experience, and also regulators do set minimum saftey standards to adhere to (whether or  not they are adequate is a different question).

 

But even manufacturers with many decades of experiecne get it wrong.. Sometimes with not too much risk at the end of the day, but sometimes you don't want to be killed by your airbags (now itself an old technology): https://www.vehiclerecalls.gov.au/recalls/rec-006035

 

Yeah, it is a supplied component, but you think they would do adequate testing. And Takata has been around since 1933: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takata_Corporation

 

For a list of all Aussie recalls: https://www.vehiclerecalls.gov.au/recalls/browse-all-recalls

 

 

Edited August 30 by Jerry_Atrick

[onetrack]

And when the new VW UP! breaks down - you can call it a F*** UP!!!

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yeah - they should have called it, "Hitch it UP" 😄

[nomadpete]

Car names....

 

Who can forget the Mitzi Starrion?

 

Did some asian sales team ask around for a strong virile name that challenges the fame of Ford's Mustang?

 

[kgwilson]

The Japanese and now the Chinese have come up with many weird sounding names for cars. To them the name probably sounds cool but to native English speakers they are just plain strange. It is probably safer to just have a number for the different models but then that gets confusing too when they add alpha prefixes or suffixes to the number just to confuse everyone even more.

[onetrack]

The Chinese have long failed to recognise the innate value of a consistent, long-standing trade name, that evokes strong feelings. Their cars represent their shape-shifting, androgynous, soulless, featureless, inscrutable society, and style of Govt.

 

Caterpillar have spent almost 100 years perfecting brand-name following and worship. They still have current patents, trademarks and registered designs on any symbol, style of lettering in the names they've used, and other identifiers of their brand name, going right back to 1925 when the company was formed. Other major U.S. industrial brand names operate in a similar fashion. The Chinese love to copy these brands, but the Rottweiler lawyers are ever on guard, ready to launch lawsuits over infringements.

 

I was at the Dowerin Field Days last Wednesday, and I was stunned to see Chinese copies of front end loaders that copied the shape and outline of Caterpillar machines, and which even used similar model numbers. I did a double-take, thinking I was looking at some new Cat model of machine.

 

Many Chinese cars follow Western models and designs in the same way - even down to the Chinese Rolls Royce,  the Hongqi H9.

 

 

Edited August 31 by onetrack

[willedoo]

I remember quite a few years ago one Chinese manufacturer had a D6D copy and I think there was a copy of a Komatsu D65 as well. The Cat D6D copy looked like the real thing from a distance. I think from memory they used Cat engines. Up close you could see how rough they were. Inside the cab was hand painted with a brush. All the welds on the machine looked like they were done by hand with a stick welder and not the best welding at that. Along the side of one track frame was a plate welded in that stood out. It was cratered with rust pits and about the size of a barbeque plate. All the rest of the steel was ok. From memory I think they were about $200,000 cheaper than a Cat.

 

There would be a huge difference in resale value if the Chinese version survived long enough to be resold. Good low hour Cats and Komatsus bring a good price whereas with the Chinese one you would have to hope it would last long enough to break even. I worked for a bloke once who used to turn his Komatsus over at 5,000 hours. He'd calculated he made more money that way with a high trade-in for a low hour machine and not having big outlays at that stage of the machine's life. He's now retired and has not bought an EV (in case you thought this was thread drift).

[red750]

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

It is probably safer to just have a number for the different models but then that gets confusing too when they add alpha prefixes or suffixes to the number just to confuse everyone even more.

Tesla did that to some degree, with the model 3, model Y, model S and model X, not to mention the Cyber Skipbin. BYD used Dolphin and Seal, then Atto 3 wherever that came from, and Sealion 6 plugin hybrid SUV.

[red750]

re my earlier post.

 

[octave]

41 minutes ago, red750 said:

re my earlier post.

I think this is happening.       Melbourne switches on 2.4 MW solar carpark       I can think of quite a few car parks

shaded by solar panels. 

 

 I would pose the question, why not do both? What is wrong with farming combined with solar, so-called "agrivoltaics" 

 

 

 

Edited August 31 by octave

[onetrack]

Here's one owners sorry story about the hidden costs in owning an EV - the cost and lack of availability of spares. The Chinese cars will become a nightmare for spares availability, I've already been through this crap with Chinese forklifts, and Chinese earthmoving equipment. You're on your own, once you own it - backup, spares and service are a joke.

 

https://au.news.yahoo.com/costly-electric-car-problem-looms-for-aussie-drivers-its-crazy-231931846.html

[kgwilson]

On 31/08/2024 at 6:46 PM, octave said:

I think this is happening.       Melbourne switches on 2.4 MW solar carpark       I can think of quite a few car parks

shaded by solar panels. 

 

 I would pose the question, why not do both? What is wrong with farming combined with solar, so-called "agrivoltaics" 

 

 

 

Solar panels and animal grazing has been around for a few years now. With panels mounted half to 2 metres above ground level and spaced a bit more than intense solar farm panels the grass is able to grow quite well under the panels and of course between rows. When it rains the run off from panels spreads out to ensure there is plenty of moisture to nourish the grass underneath. Not only that but the animals get shelter from the sun and rain.

 

https://reneweconomy.com.au/more-than-6000-sheep-now-call-australias-largest-solar-farm-home/

[red750]

Like the tiny emergency wheels on EV's.

 

[onetrack]

Volvo is the latest car manufacturer to backpedal on their original "hard target" of producing nothing else but EV's by 2030.

 

They have realised that Toyota's approach of going to hybrids first, while EV technology matures, is the more sensible approach.

 

Volvo are now saying they plan to still have a sizeable percentage of plug-in and mild hybrids in their production levels by 2030, with EV's making up the remainder of their production.

 

In other words, Volvo will still be manufacturing IC engines well into the 2030's, as they can see the EV market has plateaued - and they're also concerned that the distribution of charge points will still be inadequate for 100%  EV's for quite some time to come. I note they have not even mentioned charge times, and range of EV's, which are still sticking points for many potential buyers of EV's.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-05/volvo-cars-drops-2030-electric-vehicle-target/104316262

 

QLD inquiry expresses concern about ability of grid to cope with large number of EV's - 

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-05/queensland-ev-inquiry-power-grid-pressure-battery-technology/104315690

 

Edited September 5 by onetrack

[Marty_d]

I don't think that's a great decision.  I wonder how much pressure the oil producers are putting on car manufacturers to drag their feet.

Hybrids are the worst of both worlds.  I wouldn't have one.

[kgwilson]

Toyota and other legacy car makers have been actively campaigning governments to allow them to continue producing ICE vehicles well past the original targets. What they have seen is a large swing away towards EVs and they are unprepared and are failing to compete with Chinese EV manufacturers who are now producing more than 2 thirds of the worlds EVs at the present time.

 

Volvo is owned by Geely, a Chinese car manufacturer who produce some of the best upmarket EVs you can buy. Zeekr is one of their brands.

 

EV sales have not plateaued as is often touted by the ICE manufacturer & fossil fuel company friendly press. By the end of 2024 there will be around 17 million new EVs on the road. At the end of 2023 there were 14 million new EVs on the road. https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024/trends-in-electric-cars There has been a slow dawn of car sales world wide in the 3rd quarter of this year. This is what got the press to sensationalise parking areas full of new cars waiting to be sold, many saying they were EVs when they weren't. Even channel 7 got on the band wagon when a whole lot of Teslas were pictured in a car park in Melbourne awaiting delivery. These were stated as unsold Teslas which of course was BS. Teslas are ordered on line and are sold before being shipped from China. The slow down is largely due to tough economic conditions around the globe. Toyotas  global sales have dropped 3.5% mainly due to a fall of 27% in their biggest market, China.

 

In many markets there was a slowdown in EV sales when government incentives stopped but these have largely rebounded now. Toyota was an early adopter of hybrids but put its energy in to trying to develop the hydrogen market with nothing going in to the EV sector. Toyota is now way behind the EV 8 ball and is now partnering with BYD to produce EVs for them. Their first entry into the Australian EV market is in fact a rebadged and urbanised Subaru which is a good car but far too expensive for what it is.

[onetrack]

There has been a small drop in sales percentage for EV's in the last couple of months, but the sales percentage is up for the first 6 months of 2024.

Toyota is actually on a winner with hybrids, they're offering buyers the security of a dual source of energy, and Toyota hybrids are selling in much bigger numbers than EV's right at present.

Toyota had major supply problems in 2022 and 2022, which allowed the likes of Tesla to grab a large slice of market share - but Toyota have now solved their production problems, and there are actually plenty of all types of new Toyotas currently available for sale.

 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric-car-sales-fall-in-australia-june-2024/

[octave]

At least this article avoided the hysteria.  EV sales have not fallen off a cliff they have just grown at a slightly slower rate.   

 

 

However, demand for electric vehicles (EVs) has not fallen off a cliff, as viral footage claimed to show stockpiles of Teslas waiting at Australian ports unable to find buyers would suggest.

Data published yesterday shows 8.3 per cent of new vehicles reported as sold in June 2024 were electric, down from 8.8 per cent this time last year.

[spacesailor]

My "" Tesla " owning neighbour has had a new Prado on order ( deposit paid ). for two years now .

It has been ' coming ' for the last 6 months .

I think he should ask for a refund .

spacesailor

[pmccarthy]

My wife has had two Toyota hybrids and I have one on order now. I think they are great.

[onetrack]

Octave, you should have read to the bottom of the Drive article - where it says....

 

"Compared to the dip in electric-vehicle sales, demand for hybrids has surged, up 113 per cent year-to-date – and up 71 per cent for the month – led by Toyota.

Last June (that's June 2023), EV sales outpaced hybrids by 23 per cent; 12 months on, it is hybrid power that is 60 per cent ahead."

[kgwilson]

 Hybrids are being heavily promoted by legacy car makers as a clean alternative to ICE even though they are not. The scaremongering around EVs in the press has manifested itself in the new car market by manufacturer promotion of Hybrids so they can have a bob each way.

 

The fact that the electric range of hybrids is very poor doesn't matter. They are cheaper than pure EVs mainly because of the tiny battery so that is a plus to the buying public. They are being promoted as a greener alternative to ICE vehicles which is true too but they stlll burn fossil fuels and spew out toxic emissions. The other main attraction is the (now) irrational Range Anxiety fear.

 

They are also far more complex that either an ICE vehicle or pure EV so have higher maintenance requirements and are much more likely to catch fire than either.

 

There is also a trend towards plug in hybrids and several studies have noted that the fuel consumption values touted by manufacturers are rarely met mainly due to owners who don't bother plugging them in which indicates a poor attitude towards energy efficiency.

 

The other issue which to me is most important is you do not get the EV driving experience with totally noiseless power, instant torque, regenerative braking, hardly any servicing, & one pedal driving among the many EV advantages plus the long term total cost of ownership being less. For me also is it costs me nothing for fuel as my car runs on sunshine, that is unless i am going on a plus 400km road trip.

[old man emu]

Wouldn't the cost-of-living crisis be affected all types of passenger vehicle sales?

[Jerry_Atrick]

Here is the thinking as far as I can see. Pure EVs have a more expensive up front cost, but compared to ICE and bybrids, a far lower (even if you don't have solar) running cost. The queston is, at what point does the EV total cost of ownership beat the ICE and/or Hybrid total cost of ownership.

 

In theory, hybrids should be fine to use electric when using as a runabout and ICE when touring. But its like city-based 4x4 owners - how much of their driving is done actual 4x4-ing. How many people drive more than a couple of hundred k's in a go more than a handful of times per year?

 

In the cities and even bigger towns, I would suggest not often; In rural areas, I would suggest reasonably often. In my case, I am in a big town, but because of the cost of the train compared to the car, I do drive around 500km a week - 250kms roughly each day for 2 days per week. Even then, with better ranged EVs, I am quids in. If trains were cheaper here, the car wouldn't get a look in at more than about 30 ks in a day for all but maybe 10 times a year - and I live about 142ks from the town.

 

For me, EVs would make sense assuming the difference in running costs cover the difference in purchase price over a 5 or so year period.

[pmccarthy]

KG is in love with the EV driving experience which he describes. I am in love with the ICE driving experience which involves gear changes and a rumbling exhaust. To each his own.