Electric car thread

[red750]

 

[pmccarthy]

[nomadpete]

Yes they make buggie-cars. But they also make real sedans, too. However although it is touted as an 'all African' car manufacturing industry, it was mentioned that it was 'in collaboration ' with two Chinese companies.

Hence my question.

[red750]

Did anyone watch the Spotlight report on Channel 7  about the dirty nickel production in Indonesia, run by China for producing EV batteries, with no concern for the workers health or safety, or in environmental destruction?

[facthunter]

WARS cause environmental destruction too. Nev

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

Did anyone watch the Spotlight report on Channel 7  about the dirty nickel production in Indonesia, run by China for producing EV batteries, with no concern for the workers health or safety, or in environmental destruction?

That's how capitalist globalisation works.

[onetrack]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

Did anyone watch the Spotlight report on Channel 7  about the dirty nickel production in Indonesia, run by China for producing EV batteries, with no concern for the workers health or safety, or in environmental destruction?

No, I didn't see it, but Indonesia is Corruption Central, and we who have mining industry insights and knowledge, know full well that the Chinese are happy to ignore safety and health issues in other countries, as well as their own, when they set up mining or manufacturing arrangements.

 

I was in partnership at one time with a bloke named Don Blaxell. Don was a boatbuilder and a couple of his sons were, too (Blaxell boats and surfboards). Don owned a property (a vacant city block) in a city in Indonesia, in which city he conducted other business from other premises.

He told me one day, the local Police Chief visited him. He was chatty and friendly initially, then the Police Chief talk turned to this block of land that Don owned. "That's a nice block of land", he commented. Don agreed. Next thing the Police Chief says, "I think I should own it". Don, in all innocence, says, "So you want me to sell it to you?"

 

"No, I'm not talking about you selling it to me", came the reply. "I think you need to give it to me. Otherwise, you could possibly end up in some kind of legal troubles".

Don got the message fast, and took the next flight out of town, and never went back. He said he wasn't going to risk getting locked up on trumped-up charges, simply because he wouldn't play ball, Indonesian-Police style.

 

They are utterly corrupt - and I also note some recent travel stories about Vietnamese and Thai Police corruption when visiting Vietnamese or Thai hotels and other tourist spots. The Police run the places, and if you give bad reviews, they'll charge you with offences, and lock you up until you remove the bad reviews.

 

https://au.news.yahoo.com/aussie-tourist-warns-of-common-scam-at-popular-holiday-spot-thousands-of-dollars-per-day-024949201.html

[red750]

If you wish to view it, here is the streaming link:

 

https://7plus.com.au/7news-spotlight?autoplay=true

[octave]

https://techau.com.au/channel-7s-spotlight-on-evs-fails-to-identify-any-ev-maker-that-actually-uses-dirty-nickel-from-indonesia/#google_vignette

[facthunter]

How surprising!. Nev

[octave]

 

 

[kgwilson]

Chanel 7 turned comments off on their Spotlight page about this after getting thousands of messages pointing out the facts & rubbishing their claims. I saw the advertising for the show & figured it would be a full on anti EV show but didn't watch it. It astounds me that productions like this that are based on complete lies, the producers know it and are allowed to air it but then free to air TV is in such rapid decline it shows their desperation for an audience. So any sensationalist rubbish will, they hope, slow the decline of their audience and keep a few sponsors and advertisers from leaving.

[facthunter]

It's not owned by Rupey  It was Kerry Stoke's but some things may be changing. IF it's a sponsored thing you should be told. We NEED active Fact checking more than ever before.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

They are also going to bre representative of their big sponsors, too. The reality is we don't have a press regulator, so unless they produce something defamatory, the worst is a "please correct the record"., which they don't, and in the case of some press organisations, openly gloat that they won't.

 

You'd be surprised at how many people I know are anti EV.. And when I engage on the debate about them, they refuse to accept the basic facts that are intuitive, they still reject them. It's like their on some sort of self-destruct mode.

[onetrack]

Kerry Stokes is as right-wing as you can get, he has unparalleled control and ownership of nearly every media outlet in W.A. 

 

https://redflag.org.au/article/kerry-stokes-empire-of-shit

[facthunter]

Yeah. He's a big item in  WA.  There's worse.  m He backed Ben Roberts Smith. The Big Soldier. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Somewhat related in terms of exposing the perniciousness of these industries, which helps fuel the fake media we get now, though better posted in a Corruption is Australia thread: 

 

 

[octave]

I thought I would give a quick review of some practical EV experience.  As an EV enthusiast who doesn't own an EV, I can only go on what others tell me, but in this case, this is first-hand experience.  We have just arrived back from a 3-week trip in NZ, visiting our "favourite" offspring (he is an only child).

We spent a week driving around the South Island in petrol-driven rental cars.

I have often been told by the anti EV crowd that it takes forever and it is impractical to go outside of the city coz it take a fortnight to charge - Bollocks!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

 From my son's home we departed with around 90 something per cent charge. This was from his overnight charging, which due to a deal from the electricity company (they have to much power overnight, I think they sell it for about 10 cents a KWh). This electricity is generated from hydro. 

 

We had to make a stop in town because son and business partner had to pick up some merch to flog at the races.  Mrs Octave and I opted to stay in the car rather than to go with them.     Although it was not super hot, the sun was quite strong, so my son put the car into "dog mode", which kept the aircon running. Actually I am pretty sure you can do this some other way, but I think he thought "dog mod was humorous"

 

           

 

We then drove for another hour and stopped at a supermarket which had a Tesla supercharger in the car park.   He plugged it in and because it was a Tesla charger, there is no need to muck around with apps or credit cards, just plug it in and it charges the car and your credit card.     From memory, the car was around 85ish %.  We went into the supermarket to buy some nibbles for the journey and then located a cafe for the caffeine requirements. We probably would have been about 30 minutes. When we returned to the car, it was at 100%. We drove for a couple of hours and then needed to stop for a toilet break. We stopped at a Tesla supercharging site, plugged in and by the time we had all relieved ourselves, the Tesla was back to 100% ( charges about 280km per 15 minutes in ideal conditions).    When we reached our destination, the power was down around the 20% level.  The car directed us to a Tesla charger, and we plugged in and went to find somewhere for dinner. We found a pub with a rooftop dining area overlooking the lake. My son had one drink and then went to retrieve the car as it was approaching full.  You can just leave it, but it is bad etiquette to leave a fully charged car taking up a charging spot. 

The next day the car was not needed by my son, so Mrs Octave and I went on a bit of a jaunt in it.    We got back with 85% left.  The car was plugged into the power point supplied by our accommodation with a 10 amp "granny lead" Next morning car at 100%.

 

We drove from Taupo to Napier and stopped for a late breakfast.  I was assuming the car would have been charged whilst we went to breakfast but this was not necessary.  We later had a toilet stop at a golf club where the car was charged for a few minutes.

 

 

A couple of hours later, we stopped at a town whose name I can't recall. We drove into a shopping mall car park and plugged the car into the Tesla charger whilst we went in search of more caffeine. I don't recall how much charge this gave us, but it took us the rest of the way home.

 

It seems to me that at least with this car and in NZ, which is possibly ahead with charging infrastructure, road trips are incredibly easy. Now I imagine someone is going to say that in Australia we have much longer distances, and this is true. This is somewhat balanced out by the stupidly steep terrain in NZ and my son's shall we say, "enthusiastic" driving style.

 

 

[onetrack]

What about when the EV's are in the majority and there comes the time when you get "charger rage", as people are waiting to charge up? I think this area is what needs addressing, too much of the EV blurb and spiel is all about how you can charge at home overnight. When you're travelling, you need those charge points everywhere, and you need them freely available.

[octave]

8 minutes ago, onetrack said:

What about when the EV's are in the majority and there comes the time when you get "charger rage", as people are waiting to charge up? I think this area is what needs addressing, too much of the EV blurb and spiel is all about how you can charge at home overnight. When you're travelling, you need those charge points everywhere, and you need them freely available.

 

I can say that NZ is way ahead in terms of EV adoption. Charging facilities are everywhere there are not queues to use them anymore than there are queues for petrol stations.   Yes if everyone suddenly bought an EV overnight then there might be a temporary problem.  I am sure back when Henry Ford started producing the Model T, people might have worried that there would not be enough petrol refuelling points. Countries like Norway seem to cope with a much higher percentage of EVs than either Australia or NZ.  

 Fun fact 

In a significant milestone for the state, California now has 48% more public and shared private EV chargers than the number of gasoline nozzles.   California Energy Commission (CEC) estimates there are about 120,000 gas nozzles in the state, compared to 178,000 public and shared private chargers.

 

Your question, "what about when EVs are the majority," seems to presuppose that the number of petrol or electricity refuelling points is not driven by demand.   In Australia, the majority of new cars are petrol at this point. I haven't checked this figure, but I would imagine that this year there are more petrol cars on the road than last year. OMG what will happen when there aren't enough petrol stations?  Of course, demand creates supply.

 

I wasn't really expecting my post to "fuel" a debate; I just thought practical experience was of interest.    

[onetrack]

In Australia, between 1900 and about 1918, there were no petrol stations as we know them today, and car owners had to buy and carry 4 gallon cans of "benzene". Running boards always carried spare cans of petrol, and the used cans piled up everywhere. Poor people even cut the cans apart and flattened them and used them for cheap house cladding.

 

This lack of service stations was despite a huge surge in car ownership between about 1908 and 1918. The Model T Ford, released in 1908, became enormously popular very quickly as it was cheap and simple. But it wasn't until the early 1920's in Australia that a few petrol stations started appearing. Petrol cans had to be sourced from general stores and hardware stores before bulk fuelling became available.

 

It must have been quite inconvenient, but no-one drove the distances then that we drive today, as roads were substantially less in number and very few were sealed, only the ones in the cities.

 

I feel that recharging infrastructure is seriously lagging behind the EV takeup, and it's only a small number of bodies that are investing in charging infrastructure - and even then, only along main highways. I also feel that battery swapping MUST be an option to enable much higher EV takeup. Teslas are not selling well at present, but I think the Chinese EV onslaught will make up for that.

 

Edited Monday at 09:14 AM by onetrack

[octave]

5 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I feel that recharging infrastructure is seriously lagging behind the EV takeup, and it's only a small number of bodies that are investing in charging infrastructure - and even then, only along main highways.

Can I ask if this is a researched assertion, or is it your gut feeling?   

 

My post, which was intended as part of a debate. I was talking about NZ.  I don't have practical experience of travelling around Australia. I know there are EV drivers who have travelled around Australia.

 

If your argument is that we should be rolling out more infrastructure, then I am in agreement with you. Although I had no particular point to make with my initial post, if I were to make a point, it would be that we are lagging behind other countries. Whilst I believe battery swapping may be part of the solution, especially for larger commercial vehicles, I don't believe that they are the main solution. If you believe we can't build a charging network quickly enough, what makes you think we can build a battery swapping network (including remote) quickly enough? How does a remote battery swap centre ensure an adequate supply of batteries?  If I swap a battery in the middle of the Nullabor Plain, I would presumably swap it again at another swap centre many miles away. How does the remote swap centre maintain a stock of batteries when people are taking them away and not bringing

them back? Sure other people coming the other way might be dropping off batteries but it would be a bit of a balancing act.

 

The solution to having enough chargers is to build them, not to avoid EVS.   Interestingly, when you actually have a look at charging centres, they are often provided by private businesses.   We use one at a Westfield shopping mall car park.  Why was it there? Well, we went inside and bought some food.   The charging centre at the golf club I assume, utilises some of their carpark and presumably gets a share of the revenues, and I suppose it benefits their members who drive EVs.

 

Whilst in NZ we got a bus from Christchurch Airport into the City.  Many of the buses are electric, and all of the airport buses are EV. They can drive around the city all day and they charge over 2 hours at night.

 

Electric buses – all you need to know

[octave]

Just another thought on battery swapping. My son has a Tesla 3, and his girlfriend has a BYD Atto 3.  These vehicles have different battery chemistries and, of course, are physically different in terms of size, weight, attachment methods, etc. In order for battery swapping to be the common way, there needs to be standardisation.  As well as being a complex task for every manufacturer to use the same standard, there is also the problem that this could stifle progress.  If a battery has to be in a specific location. What if a manufacturer wanted for reasons of handling and weight distribution, to put some of the batteries in the front and some in the back?     Whilst battery swapping in optimal cases can be done in a few minutes, EVS are also getting much quicker to charge.   As they do get quicker, the case for battery swap will diminish. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

There already seems to be a decent swathe of charging stations across Australia: https://evpowerhouse.com.au/ev-charging-stations-australia-map/?srsltid=AfmBOoo8KnJj5IIvv-2Suz6bToi4xWEZhtN0giYILSNQtnfMjNFCtyWK

 

If your going from Adelaide to Perth in a Nissan Leaf, you may find it a bit tricky, but I am sure I posted a few vids of a retired engineer driving across Australia (Sydney to Perth and back, I think) with no issues. Yes, the infrastructure and standards are still immature, as he had to take a plethora (about three) different types of charging cables. Yes, some recharging sites were slow, but many had supercharging facilities. Looking at the map, where most people more often drive, range anxiety should not be a big deal. Year, there are some areas where there are none, (north west of the country desert/outback east/west of the Stuart Hwy/ and a gap between what looks like Cooktown and Cape York, but looking at that map, I certainly wouldn't be too worried for most of my driving.

 

There are other problems; if the recharging station is the only one for eons and it is faulty, you are kinda stuck for a while. But, as BEVs are less likely to breakdown in the same way ICE cars are, if you have a fault with your engine in an ICE in the middle of nowhere, especially with the technology today, you are likely to be kinda stuck for a while as well. Also, if you are travelling and staying overnight in motels or caravan park type campsites, you can still fill while you sleep.

 

When I am back in Aus, a BEV will be high on the list - one with decent range.  Tesla is off the wish list (and the best range with 857km, Model S Plaid, strangely is not available in the country most likely to benefit from it). The Polestar does 654km on a charge (of course, these are test conditions, but if I am getting 400kms @ 110kph, I am pretty happy). And yeah, I will look at second hand ones... There are diagnostic tools that can be used to check their health.

 

 

[red750]

It's hard to determine how many charging stations there are in Australia. There are websits and count tables, but they do not show when the tables were created. The web page may have an update date, but no indication as to what was changed. The table I found just now is below.

 

 

There are maps on the web which you can zoom into to find charging stations near you or your journey and destination.