Electric car thread

[red750]

I have nothing against electric vehicles and if I won Ozlotto, I would think about buying one. My daughter definitely wants one. As I only drive on average 50 kms a fortnnight, it doesn't really matter. But as things stand now, unless there was one for less than $5,000, it's out of the question. I will not borrow to buy anything, and as a pensioner, getting even a small loan is virtually out of the question. Mention the word pension, and they all say "Sorry." I only needed to borrow $2,000 to buy my Festiva less than 12 months ago, I had the rest, and I had to borrow from my daughter as I got rejected for every loan I applied for. I have paid her back long ago. Now, if I can't pay cash, I go without.

 

My credit rating is actually going down as I don't have a loan portfolio. I have a credit card with a very small limit, and it is in credit a couple of dollars. I've had it for more than 15 years, and keep it basically to use at parking pay stations which only accept credit cards. If I cancel it, they would not issue another.  

[octave]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

I have nothing against electric vehicles and if I won Ozlotto, I would think about buying one. My daughter definitely wants one. As I only drive on average 50 kms a fortnnight, it doesn't really matter. But as things stand now, unless there was one for less than $5,000, it's out of the question. I will not borrow to buy anything, and as a pensioner, getting even a small loan is virtually out of the question. Mention the word pension, and they all say "Sorry." I only needed to borrow $2,000 to buy my Festiva less than 12 months ago, I had the rest, and I had to borrow from my daughter as I got rejected for every loan I applied for. I have paid her back long ago. Now, if I can't pay cash, I go without.

 

My credit rating is actually going down as I don't have a loan portfolio. I have a credit card with a very small limit, and it is in credit a couple of dollars. I've had it for more than 15 years, and keep it basically to use at parking pay stations which only accept credit cards. If I cancel it, they would not issue another.  

 

Yes, I am in a similar position however I do celebrate those early adopters who are in a position to push into the new technologies,  In earlier days I pushed into early computers and the internet.  The new technologies are exciting. I look forward to the time when I will be able to get into EVs 

[facthunter]

Research the Chinese BYD .In my view this is the way to do it. 1820 Kgs if you want the weight information.  Nev

[nomadpete]

 

ONLY 1820kg?

 

That's half a ton heavier than my dad's  EJ Holden which was only 1132kg kerb weight.

 

Methinks there is a long way to go with keeping the weight of EV's down.

 

Lower weight = better range, less road wear, less tyre and brake wear and better acceleration.

Edited January 18 by nomadpete

[spacesailor]

TOWING 

IS dependent on the weight of your vehicle. 

So weight for someone who does ' long ' holiday trips with the family & " the toys " to live by . Is paramount! , according to government Law .

I only drive , ' shopping ' or ' touring ' .

Sometimes across ' deserts ' , ' mountains ' or on the ' beach ' .

I tow , so have to have a vehicle capable of legally towing my toys .

spacesailor

 

[kgwilson]

My EV weighs 1672kg fully charged. Almost all of the modern ICE Utes and SUVs are as heavy or heavier.

 

There isn't much of a 2nd hand market at present but that will change rapidly given the numbers being added to the national fleet. Nearly 15 million new EVs were added to the global fleet in 2023 and there are now about 40 million on the road. If that is what you call a fad it seems like a long term one to me. There are over 400 different brands of EVs globally, 300 of these in China and new ones a popping up all the time.

[spacesailor]

I Would like one too . ( E V , that is ).

But

A jeep , going ' cheap ' is taking my fancy .

Not running, 

Out of rego. & sitting in a driveway for a couple of years . 

So clean- up , new special battery.  Change oils. Then the dreaded " over the pits " . After I rent a car trailer to transport 

It to it's new home . ( more wishful dreaming ) .

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

Kevin, do you really think there's going to be a decent market for used EV's? The way I see it is, an EV battery is buggered after 8-10 years, so effectively that's the same as a new engine required for an IC vehicle.

You're up for a new battery to keep the thing going, and the cost of the new battery is probably more than an EV with a buggered battery is worth - which would be effectively zero, IMO.

Meantimes, my 20 yr old Hilux - even a petrol-powered one - still has another 10-15 years of engine life at least. Hardly anyone reconditions IC engines any more, they effectively last 350,000-500,000 kms, and this is around 30-35 years of vehicle age.

So the economics of EV's are still a long way off any IC vehicle - despite the maintenance, fuel and oils of the IC vehicle.

If batteries start to get dirt cheap, the economics might change - but they've been building lead acid batteries for 165 years, and they're still relatively expensive. In fact, they've gone up considerably just in the last 3 years.

[Jerry_Atrick]

https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-degradation-average-2022/

 

 

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-degradation-average-2022/

 

 

From the above link:

Tesla revealed the average battery capacity (and range) degradation for its electric cars in its new Impact Report 2022. According to the company, the average battery capacity loses after 200,000 miles (322,000 km) is 12 percent of the original capacity. The statement is very general, but there is a chart with Model S/Model X, which suggests that we are talking solely about this platform.

 

After reading that, I firmly believe that Trump will become the most benevolent President in the history of USA. In comparison, Christ's words  from Luke 18:16-17 KJV, "Suffer little children to come unto me",would sound like a paedophile's grooming.

[nomadpete]

Im not sure what your angle is, OME.

 

Please enlighten me how EV battery life relates to the appointed orange one.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yeah.. I have to admit.. I am confused. by OME's post..

 

BTW, there have been instances where batteroes outside their warranty have pooped in their pants and have cost the owners their life savings.. But there are also plenty of ICE examples as well.. We can talk general (or norms), or outliers.. You choose.

 

BTW, over here, a warranty duration means nothing. Consumer law looks at what is a reasonable expectation.. If it is reasonably expected the batter last 15 years before it is unusseable, that is what a court will hold. And the waranty starts frm day 0 for the part replaced when it is replaced. If that particualr battery is prone to failure well before its reasonable life, you can well expect may years of cost free replcements.

Edited January 18 by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

There is a similar consumer law in Australia,  I believe.

 

However, after reading some motoring threads where certain models of  engines are referred to as hand grenades, it seems the results of court cases is patchy.

The manufacturers fight tooth and nail to avoid precedents which might trigger an avalanche of costly payouts.

[facthunter]

The BYD is ahead in quality and concept It's an EV with smallish IC Engine backup to charge  a safe battery when  required. No duplication of transmissions and competitively priced It's NOT Just "another" EV.  Desert Racing stuff uses a similar proven principle. Nev

[onetrack]

Nev, I thought you previously stated that hybrid vehicles were the Worst of the Worst? - all the problems of EV's, coupled with all the problems of IC engined vehicles?

 

Jerry, that Tesla article about battery life is a masterstroke of disingenuous and misleading information. MILES is not the primary measure of battery life - TIME is.

The Americans drive their vehicles day and night and often do hundreds of miles a day. Their road network encourages driving. It's not uncommon for relatively new American cars to have huge mileage.

 

The bottom line is that many people outside America only do 15,000-20,000 kms a year and you find most 10 year old vehicles here have only run up 150,000 to 200,000 kms. But an IC engine at that point is still only halfway through its normal lifespan, and can easily go for another 20 yrs on average, as kms tend to drop with vehicle age.

 

But a battery dies just from its timespan, as it is a constant chemical reaction in train, and even just sitting unused, it is still degrading. But an IC engine, properly stored and run occasionally, can last for 50 or 70 years.

 

This is not to say I'm totally anti-EV, I'm just pointing out the subtle differences between EV and IC - and most early-EV-adopters are wealthy people who care little about timespan in a vehicle , they swap vehicles every 12 mths or 2 yrs, because they can afford it, and because the tax system is totally slanted in their favour to keep swapping vehicles.

 

Edited January 19 by onetrack

[facthunter]

It's NOT a Hybrid.. That's the Point. The IC motor is only coupled to a Generator and it activates when needed at the best revs and load for the IC motor. Not a big, heavy or powerful motor and one  which could be fuelled by many things in certain situations in future designs. Hybrids are the worst of both worlds. An expensive stop gap for those who can't decide. Nev

[kgwilson]

Most ICE vehicles don't get past 200-400,000km in their life time. At that point they are worth very little & even if the engine is still good, the rest of the car is pretty tired and maintenance costs mount considerably.

 

The batteries now being produced by CATL, BYD, LG, Panasonic etc using the same NMC chemistry as they have been for some years now have improved in quality and longevity dramatically. Some Chinese EV manufacturers are now providing a 500,000 km warranty on the battery. This is in China only but shows the confidence they have in the latest battery technology. Much of the improvement has come from battery management software that looks after the battery for the owner rather than relying on humans to manage it.

 

My car has a 7 year unlimited km warranty on the battery. Others, generally more expensive EVs have 8 and 10 year warranties.

 

Tesla built its first Gigafactory in Nevada in 2016. Included was a battery recycling facility. As at 2021 they had not recycled any batteries at all other than damaged ones. This is because used EV batteries have a ready market as battery storage in houses and commercial buildings and are still good for many years. When an EV battery is toast it is recycled as black mass. All of the minerals are recovered and can be reused in new batteries.

 

The first Tesla roadster in 2008 based on the Lotus Elise chassis had a 50kWh battery which degraded to about 70% after 5 years and 80,000km. That is laughable now but those numbers are still being used by all sorts of anti EV people and publications. 1 million km is now a basic standard (at least from CATL) before the battery degrades to 80% of new. Newer technologies are even better including LFP & Sodium and others in the pipeline promise massive improvements.

 

In 10 years time 1000km range will be normal with 5 minute charges giving 400km of range as a minimum. Already some EVs can get over 100km from a 5 minute charge. I am happy with my slow home charger and power from my rooftop solar. In 10 years time I'll be in my 80s & probably not driving much but at least I won't have pumped any emissions into the atmosphere between now and then.

[old man emu]

11 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Im not sure what your angle is, OME. Please enlighten me

It's sarcasm.

 

The EV supporting website posted something produced by Tesla, which is what I quoted. The rest of it falls into the category of "pig might fly". 

 

My sense of humour is really obtuse, isn't it?

[pmccarthy]

But your wit is acute.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

But your wit is acute.

My mother has acute angina, but let's not go there! 

[red750]

Back to thread topic. There must have been at least a dozen news reports about Prince William visiting his wife in hospital, and every one had to mention that he left in an electric Audi.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, red750 said:

Back to thread topic. There must have been at least a dozen news reports about Prince William visiting his wife in hospital, and every one had to mention that he left in an electric Audi.

I think it won't be long before an electric Audi is not unusual enough to bother mentioning it. To me, this is not surprising news. Why wouldn't you use an EV if you can afford it?  To me as a modern progressive person, this is not newsworthy,

.

[nomadpete]

Its probably just the modern journalism system. One person writes something and all the rest mindlessly repeat it.

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, red750 said:

Back to thread topic. There must have been at least a dozen news reports about Prince William visiting his wife in hospital, and every one had to mention that he left in an electric Audi.

I think that the reason I arc up about EVs is not the technology, but the way adoption of EVs has been woven into Wokeism. A person saying any minor thing said against EVs is taken to be  tantamount to a traitor to sme new religious cult. Any person of celebrity using an EV is seen as at least one of the cult's deacons, if not priests. Makes me wonder if the sacrificial food of the EV cult is vegan.

 

But I suppose now I will be pilloried for upsetting someone's feelings, the highest crime against Wokeism.

[Jerry_Atrick]

@old man emu - can you pls let us know what the etymology of woke (as in wokeism) is.. I didn't realise it meant having anything to do with climate concerns, nor was it necessarily being a liberal, progressive, or such stuff.