Electric car thread

[Marty_d]

Australia is the richest country in the world for wind and solar.  These are FREE sources of energy.  Yet the fossil fuel industries will twist and turn and try anything they possibly can to throw red herrings in the way of a full and timely transition.

It just shows that their bottom line and lining the already full pockets of their shareholders is far more important to them than the future of the planet.  It's basically criminal behaviour but the laws haven't caught up (and won't, because they buy politicians).

[onetrack]

The problem is in financing the renewable energy systems required to replace fossil fuel power generation - and the FF companies know this, and will play it to the max.

It is a major, major outlay, and it's not like the outlay is simply for one style of RE generation - the outlay is required to build massive solar arrays, build massive wind turbines, and buy huge batteries.

 

And at the end of the day, the RE systems have a shorter lifespan than FF power stations. Most of the FF power stations are good for 50 to 75 years, solar systems and wind turbines and batteries are currently only good for 20 years. 

It's all very well to say, "but they're all recyclable" - but recycling is another huge cost and energy user, and I've yet to see any recycling system that pays its way. They all need constant, ongoing funding.

 

There's an interesting piece of mine construction going on at present in W.A. It's the West Musgrave nickel-copper project on the Eastern central edge of W.A. This location is so remote (over 700kms from Kalgoorlie, which is already as "Outback" as you can get, as regards civilisation), the company is having to install the largest private RE power generation plant to ever be built in Australia.

 

But the project is costing AU$1.7B and a very large slice of that outlay is in the RE power generation. However, this is also mining company money, so pretty much a bottomless pit of shareholder funds available here.

Even at that, the power generation at West Musgrave is still going to be hybrid, with large diesel generators as backup - and the bottom line is, the RE power generation setup will be worn out in 20 years, but the mine orebody is likely to be almost exhausted then, as well.

 

https://www.mining-technology.com/projects/west-musgrave-project/?cf-view

 

https://publications.aecom.com/sustainable-legacies/projects/developing-one-of-the-world-s-largest-off-grid-renewables-powered-mines/

[kgwilson]

There are many outback farms that have now invested in their own solar systems and batteries that while there is an initial upfront investment pay for them selves quite rapidly. The system runs all the various households, sheds, pumps, and anything else that needs power including electrically powered farm machinery and vehicles. There are also plenty of small scale wind turbines on offer to supplement these.

 

Twiggy Forrest is electrifying all of his mines and there are already many electric dump trucks operating, all powered by batteries charged from solar systems.

 

Yes the dinosaurs still whinge but they will either move on and become part of the future or refuse to acknowledge inevitable change and be confined to the dustbin of history.

Edited February 15 by kgwilson

[onetrack]

But every single one of those systems still needs diesel power generation backup.

[kgwilson]

10 minutes ago, onetrack said:

But every single one of those systems still needs diesel power generation backup.

Why?

[onetrack]

Because the RE systems cannot be relied on to produce full power 100% of the time. Cloudy days and windless days will seriously impact full output.

 

Edited February 15 by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

Why not used redundant battery storage, toped up and tested regularly?

 

Of course, many buildings connected to the grid have back up diesel generators, anyway.. so this is hardly a big deal. If the generateors are brought on, say 20% of the time, then you're probably still ahead of fossil fuel generation..

 

And, yes.. I haven't yet done the maths.

[octave]

11 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Because the RE systems cannot be relied on to produce full power 100% of the time. Cloudy days and windless days will seriously impact full output.

 

Big Battery Storage Map of Australia

 

There are also growing numbers of home batteries with can sell back to the grid. Growing numbers of EVs with the ability take from the grid when power is plentiful and give power when the grid is struggling. Ever-expanding rooftop solar increasing support by battery.

 

The wholesale price of electricity according to AEMO is falling  https://aemo.com.au/newsroom/media-release/east-coast-wholesale-electricity-prices-fall

 

 

I could go on

 

[spacesailor]

I see that the $ 250 power-bill threshold has risen to $ 300 .

Must have been too many poor people getting the rebate .

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

Battery storage instead of a diesel generator is eminently viable. A friend of mine who installed stand alone solar in 2011 has never needed his backup generator to this day. My EV can supply up to 32 amps to my house during a blackout. I don't have big enough cables or a proper feed in system to do this but we had a 4 hour power cut & I ran the fridge, freezer, radio, computers & some lamps and used hardly any of the cars battery. I did borrow a 2.5mm 20 amp extension cable to test it one day & ran the electric jug & a heater, total of 3.3 kW no problem.

 

Based on my average daily use I could run the entire house for over 8 days from the full car battery.

 

I've just installed a 6.6kW solar system to add to the 2kW system installed in 2013. The other day it was cloudy most of the day but I was still generating over 4kW of power at the time so even when the sun is not shining it still works. This would be a lot less if it was very heavy overcast and raining but at least along the Eastern seaboard this does not happen often or for very long at one time.

 

[old man emu]

46 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

even when the sun is not shining it still works

Away from urban light pollution, you notice how much light the moon reflects. I wonder if that reflected light is strong enough to produce a trickle of charge.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, old man emu said:

 

Away from urban light pollution, you notice how much light the moon reflects. I wonder if that reflected light is strong enough to produce a trickle of charge.

 

The team from the School of Photovoltaic and Renewable Energy Engineering generated electricity from heat radiated as infrared light, in the same way as the Earth cools by radiating into space at night.

 

 

Solar Panels That Work at Night Developed at Stanford

[old man emu]

Yes. Not only do these photovoltaic cells use the part of the spectrum that gives us colours, but also the ultraviolet and infrared portions. There is probably more infrared energy flying about (global warming and all that), but it is dispersed a lot by the atmosphere. However, pennies make pounds.

[Jerry_Atrick]

38 minutes ago, octave said:

 

The team from the School of Photovoltaic and Renewable Energy Engineering generated electricity from heat radiated as infrared light, in the same way as the Earth cools by radiating into space at night.

 

 

Solar Panels That Work at Night Developed at Stanford

The second link doesn't work for me... Can you pls resend?

[octave]

3 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

The second link doesn't work for me... Can you pls resend?

 

oops my bad   https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/solar-panels-that-work-at-night-developed-at-stanford/

[old man emu]

Have you been able to access the article Rowan Atkinson wrote for the British Telegraph? Although it is behind a paywall the presenter of this video goes through it in detail.

 

Rowan Atkinson??? Isn't he the bloke who created that idiot, Mr Bean? What would he know? Well, watch and learn.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Does the " car battery " to house need an " inverter " ,

to get the voltage to 240vX 50 c , ( or French hertz).

We have Tesla & charging lead , BUT the prongs of that charging lead ' plug ' show zero volts whilst plugged into the car .

How to get access to your battery voltage,? .

spacesailor

 

[octave]

1 minute ago, spacesailor said:

Does the " car battery " to house need an " inverter " ,

As I understand it the car has an inbuilt inverter. At this stage, Tesla vehicles do not support vehicle to load.

[kgwilson]

Rowan Atkinsons clip was sponsored by the Telegraph, an Anti EV tabloid. Many of the comments have been debunked, including the Volvo reference which is completely incorrect. The problem is because of his elevated status as a famous Actor the anti EV lobby has grasped this with both hands and not checked any of his claims.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles

 

 

[kgwilson]

33 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Does the " car battery " to house need an " inverter " ,

to get the voltage to 240vX 50 c , ( or French hertz).

We have Tesla & charging lead , BUT the prongs of that charging lead ' plug ' show zero volts whilst plugged into the car .

How to get access to your battery voltage,? .

spacesailor

 

All EVs need an inverter to convert AC from the grid into DC which the batteries need unless you always charge from a public DC fast charger which supplies DC current direct to the battery. I don't know of any EV that does not have an inverter. Most prior to 2020 though had only a one way inverter, that is from AC to DC. Now the majority have reverse inverters so you can select to discharge power from the Type 2 AC cable connection on the car via a discharge adaptor to any normal 230 volt appliance.

 

The level of discharge is set by the car but also the discharge adaptor. Most manufacturers set the limit in the adaptor to 10 amps. This is because the large majority of people don't understand electricity and will use a household extension lead that only has 1mm  phase and neutral cores, then plug in a 6 outlet power board with multiple appliances and if the current was not restricted the cable would overheat and possibly melt the insulation and catch fire.

[facthunter]

You'd have to make sure the power didn't go down a transmission line for the sake of safety of line workers and it has to be synched to the network or  something has to give. Your inverter for the solar panels does that .  Nev

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

The problem is because of his elevated status as a famous Actor

A comment like that is a clear indication that you did not watch the video. Raising that point by Evans is completely irrelevant to Atkinson's comments. It smacks of a snide comment in Question Time. Sure, Atkinson is well known to the public through his career in entertainment. In fact Atkinson was appointed Commander of the Order of the British Empire in the 2013 Birthday Honours for services to drama and charity.

 

Remember that Atkinson got into comedy while he studying  at uni. After receiving top grades in science A levels,he secured a place at Newcastle University, where he received a BSc degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering in 1975. He subsequently obtained an MSc degree in Electrical Engineering at The Queen's College, Oxford in 1975. His master's thesis, published in 1978, considered the application of self-tuning control.

 

Can your Simon Evans match those qualifications? Better still, who the hell is this Evans bloke? Atkinson may have published in an Anti EV tabloid, but the video I posted outlined the connections Evans has with some interesting organisations. Evans is from a website called Carbon Brief, is a UK-based website covering the latest developments in climate science, climate policy and energy policy. We specialise in clear, data-driven articles and graphics to help improve the understanding of climate change, both in terms of the science and the policy response. Which is supported by  European Climate Foundation, which provides our funding. In the spirit of transparency, this funding totalled £1,176,376 for the financial year of 2022. Do I detect a few parts per million of bias?

 

Did Atkinson bag electric vehicles? Hardly at all. He seems to be all for EVs in congested urban areas where travel distances are short, but traffic flow is slow, leading to unnecessary emission of combustion products. Did Atkinson champion alternative combustible fuels? Not so much champion, but acknowledge that they were a possibility with further research.

 

What Atkinson pointed out was that the EV isn't economically viable if people adopt a throw-away mentality to cars by turning them over after a very short period of three years. You'll say that the expected serviceable life of an EV battery is 10 years. I'll go along with that. So what Atkinson is saying is that if you buy any vehicle, no matter what the power source is, don't ditch it in three years. It is better for the environment to use the resources that went into making the vehicle for as long as possible. That, is a convoluted way, is sequestering carbon by not having to use, let's say, the same amount twice more over the ten-year life of the vehicle.

 

However, keeping vehicles for a long period, not matter what power source, seems to be anathema to the European Union which now wants to ban the repair of any vehicle more than 15 years old.

 

 

[octave]

3 minutes ago, old man emu said:

What Atkinson pointed out was that the EV isn't economically viable if people adopt a throw-away mentality to cars by turning them over after a very short period of three years.

Although there are quite a few errors and in fact, some of the assertions were actually changed in subsequent editions (see the video that KG posted) I do actually agree with the above statement.  Pretty much the only reason I have not bought an EV is that my present car is old but in good condition for its age and but would probably not fetch much if I sold it.   It would be foolhardy I think we could suddenly change the whole fleet in a short time.  The change is slow. In 2034 with the present timetable, you will be able to buy a shiny new IC car (although I doubt it will be economical).   Atkinson is right on that point. The model of changing a car (of any type) every 3 years is problematic  Although of course if someone does change their EV after 3 years, it is not being scrapped but it becomes available on the used car market. 

 

 

[red750]

I'm sick of people denying people's right to an opinion just because they don't agree with you. 

[octave]

9 minutes ago, red750 said:

I'm sick of people denying people's right to an opinion just because they don't agree with you. 

 

People of course are entitled to their own opinions.  The problem comes when people believe their opinions are facts. Truth is incredibly important.   If someone says 100 EVs have caught fire in Australia this is not asserting an opinion but it is presenting a falsehood.    As I have said many many times I don't care whether hate EVs and don't ever wish to drive one, that is totally fair enough they don't have to buy one.   Red do you have an example of people denying someone's opinion?