Electric car thread

[red750]

I'm not philosophically against EV, it's just that they are currently about 5 or 6 times what I can afford.

 

There are lots of adverts for installation of solar panels which would facilitate free charging of an EV, but despite the government subsidies, I would also need to unpgrade the 50+ year old wiring, and the roof would need repair before that could take place. Simply outside my budget.

 

Not that I have done any research, but what I've seen and read of the BYD, it  seems a reasonable choice.

[octave]

Red I would agree that there would be little point for you.  I am sort of in the same position although I do have solar. Since retirement, I just don't do enough KMs to justify a new car of any sort. I do get do drive one for a couple of weeks a year when on holiday and it is immensely enjoyable to drive.   I may consider it when my present car dies.  

 

My son's girlfriend has a BYD Atto 3 and she seems to like it.

[Marty_d]

Probably the wrong thread,  but this has got me thinking of electric aircraft. 

Surely the problems with IC auto conversions - the time spent at higher load etc - don't apply to electric?

Obviously the battery weight (and shape) of EV's is all wrong for aircraft.  But if energy density improves and the batteries can be reconfigured,  then all the benefits of electric - low vibration,  maintenance, less complexity - also apply to aircraft, right?

[red750]

12 minutes ago, octave said:

I just don't do enough KMs to justify a new car

I keep a daily log of km's. Since Jan 1, I have driven 378 km. In the three months Oct - Dec last year, I drove 1242 km.

[old man emu]

7 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

but this has got me thinking of electric aircraft. 

You are months behind on your reading of this thread, I think. I posted a video about a flying school in Norway that was using electric powered small aircraft - similar to the small Jabiru - for ab initio training. They were getting about an hour out of a recharge, which is fine for those first few hours a student uses getting to solo and a bit more. I think they use ICE powered types for the latter stages of training. I think the article said that it took  about 40 minutes to recharge the battery, which give 20 minutes for a debrief for the first student and 20 minutes briefing/pre-flight inspection for the next one.

 

The greatest advantage that electric power gives an aircraft is that density altitude does not affect power output. At ISA or 45C you'll get the same torque/

[facthunter]

Reliability no warm up No vibration  Quiet and a pile of engine instruments not required No cooling worries or heavy exhaust systems. Forget about the regen unless you get a big thermal.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yes, the Pipestrel has about an hour of endurance. At the moment, the transition from fossil fuel may be eveolutionary - a hybrid setup in a Skymaster seems to have evovled well so far: https://www.thecooldown.com/green-tech/ampaire-electric-aircraft-endurance-flight/

 

I imagined that development would have moved quicker in the less regulated areas of aviation due to the glacial pace of development imposed by the regulation of GA.

[spacesailor]

Build quality of production line vehicles is only as good as the 

' monkey ' that puts the nuts on , & the number of spot-welds .

The UK cars all had that same problem for too many years ,we all blamed the car maker ,

But when the worker doesn't get enough time to put 5 nut on each wheel , of only manager's three ' spot welds out of five .

All due to " time & motion " personal cutting their work time , hence moneys. 

Lucas electrical.  BMC and ROOTES group .

All went bad .

spacesailor

[red750]

The Pipistrel Alpha Electro was introduced in 2015. It has a  change-over battery which can be swapped in 5 minutes. See the Aircraft section profile here.

 

 

The Chinese produce a similar machine, the Liaoning Ruixiang RX1E.

 

[onetrack]

The thread is about electric cars, so here's some more reports on them.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/29/23188085/jd-power-initial-quality-study-2022-tesla-polestar-ev-decline

 

 

 

[octave]

There is something pretty weird about that video. The narration seems very oddly written.  Why the constant reference to Ford?  

 

I think the bottom line is if you don't think EVs are any good then don't buy one. If they are the disaster you believe them to be then sales naturally reduce and EVs will disappear. 

 

[onetrack]

The whole video is about Ford EV's and their poor build quality. But IMO, all Fords suffer from poor build quality, anyway.

However, the video points out that despite Ford being a vehicle manufacturer of 120 years standing, they still have trouble making reliable EV's - when they should be a piece of cake, as they're supposedly so much simpler.

Ford are still going over to more EV manufacturing, but Jim Farley has had a "Road to Damascus" moment when he was fronted with the figures for Ford unreliability - so he's reportedly set about lifting Ford build quality.

 

But, what Farley has also done is break up Ford into three major business sections - Ford EV's, Ford "Legacy" manufacturing (IC-engine and Hybrid vehicles), and Ford "Pro", which he claims is vastly more profitable and important to Ford than anything else.

Ford Pro is their technology sales and parts division, and Farley is reporting to analysts that they're making 50% profit on Ford Pro, far more than any other part of their business.

 

Their Legacy manufacturing has around about 10% profit level, and their EV manufacturing is a massive loss-making division that is not expected to be profitable for several years.

Despite that, Ford are still ploughing US$50B into their EV manufacturing division, with a major accent on EV build cost reduction.

[kgwilson]

I don't think the problems are unique to Ford. The entire US auto industry is in decline and has been for some years. During the 2008 financial crisis GM was bankrupt & had to get bailed out by the government as it was deemed to big to fail. It shed all of its subsidiaries around the world and is a shadow of its former self. The government sold the last of its shareholding in 2015 losing US$10 billion in the process. If there was no protection of the US auto industry both Ford & GM would be history. Chrysler merged with Fiat and eventually has become part of the Stellantis group based in Holland.

 

Even back 25 years ago when i was on a business trip to the US I asked one of the managers of a company why there were so many Japanese cars appearing on US roads (he drove a Honda) & I got a one word answer "Quality".

[onetrack]

I don't think Ford ever got bailed out by the U.S. Govt, but they certainly got hurt with the GFC. The U.S. Govt bailed out Chrysler way back in the 1980's I think it was - but they got all their money back when Chrysler recovered to profitability.

[kgwilson]

Chrysler also got Government  money in 2008-9, GM got $US18 billion & Chrysler got $US4 billion but then Fiat came to the rescue so that is how Chrysler ended up as part of the Stellantis group when it swallowed Fiat.

Edited February 17 by kgwilson

[Jerry_Atrick]

Ford did get federal government funding but not to the tune of GM: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-government-loan-department-energy-debt/5526413002/

 

Although it was a loan - it was a bail out as no one else was going to finance them and they couldn't get cash.

 

Just because a manufacturer is 120 years old doesn't mean that the quality will be sound.. it depends on the management and the workforce of the day. I recall an era where Boeing made high quality airliners, but now, in planning a flight back to Aus, I am trying to make sure I am on an Airbus all the way. 

[onetrack]

Jerry, that article is from July 2020, so 3.5 years old. I wonder how much of that US$5.9B Govt loan to Ford, has since been repaid, though?

Ford's long-term debt levels seem staggering to us mere mortals, but I guess it's in line with many other manufacturers, as they have to finance new models, new plant and machinery, and new factories.

 

Ford's long term debt currently stands at US$94B, but it's up from the US$88B it was, in Sept 2022. However, it's nothing like the US$140B it was, in March 2016.

 

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/F/ford-motor/long-term-debt#:~:text=Ford Motor long term debt for 2023 was %2499.562B,a 19.88% decline from 2020.

[old man emu]

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

Ford's long-term debt levels seem staggering to us mere mortals, but I guess it's in line with many other manufacturers, as they have to finance new models, new plant and machinery, and new factories. Ford's long term debt currently stands at US$94B, but it's up from the US$88B it was, in Sept 2022. However, it's nothing like the US$140B it was, in March 2016.

 

It's amazing if you compare the financial thinking of companies like Ford and GM with the financial thinking of Australian Conservative governments in relation to debt burden.

 

Ford and GM stockholders are prepared to accept a long term deficit which is needed to finance new models, new plant and machinery, and new factories, but the very same sort of people demand of the political party they support to reduce spending as much as possible so that the Budget is in surplus, but the very things that we put into the care of governments get run down and fail to satisfy increasing demand.

[octave]

11 hours ago, onetrack said:

The whole video is about Ford EV's and their poor build quality.

it is interesting to look at the playlist from this YouTube channel.   Certainly seems to have an agenda and judging by the titles of its other videos perhaps a little sensationalist. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/@the_best_car_content/videos

[old man emu]

Back on topic. Sort of.

Do you like the bells and whistles in your modern vehicle? The ability to access the various computers in a car is a great help in indicating where a problem might be laying. But having created the software for both the correct operation of computer controlled operations and failure identification, the vehicle manufacturers are looking at greener software pastures.

 

In late 2012, Tesla Motors beamed out a software update to its earliest sedans. When tethered to a WiFi or 3G internet connection, Model S owners could download a tweak to their music player and some other features. It was a minor change, but one with profound reverberations that continue to this day. That marked arguably the first time a car company treated a vehicle like a modern tech product—one designed to adapt and improve over time thanks to new, software-enabled capabilities. Previously, new features came with new models or mid-life updates to cars, and fixes happened at car dealerships. Now, both can happen wirelessly. 

 

Today, auto giants from General Motors to Volkswagen are laser-focused on transforming themselves into tech companies. They’re chasing the holy grail of “software-defined vehicles,” smarter cars that are as satisfying and entertaining to operate as a smartphone, increasingly autonomous, and able to download transformative new capabilities with a tap. 

 

Sounds like a really great advance, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. The manufacturers think that recurring revenue from subscription services and downloads will make them much richer than selling dumb cars ever did. General Motors said it expected its in-car subscription services to generate nearly $2 billion in revenue in 2021 and will reach as high as $25 billion by the end of the decade, an amount the company said will put it in the same league as Netflix, Peloton and Spotify.

 

[nomadpete]

Thank goodness my bicycle isn't internet connected.

[kgwilson]

OTA (over the air) software updates are becoming more common especially with EVs as software manages absolutely everything but also with a lot of ICE cars as well. Without software the ICE engines in modern cars would not run at all. Though my car is capable of OTA updates, they will not supply the access keys or passwords. This means I have to go in to the dealer to get an update and if this does not occur during a scheduled service I have to pay for them to plug it in & wait while it gets downloaded & updated.

 

My first scheduled service is in 2 years and there have already been several updates released. Everything works fine so I don't need to drive 60km to pay for an update that I may not even notice. The process is a fairly blatant attempt to extract money from customers as they are not getting anywhere near the continuing revenue they do from ICE customers.

 

The car has an E-SIM & GPS built in to it so it can be tracked anywhere. I can check it's status from an app on my phone anywhere, turn on the aircon or heater etc so when I get to it it is already cool or warm as soon as i open the door, it can be geofenced as well plus a bunch of other things.

 

This is now common and where the world of personal transport is headed. Self driving is still in its infancy but I reckon in the very near future car ownership will decline in favour of renting when required. You will use an app & order the car. It will arrive, driverless & you will get in & go to a pre planned destination or tell it where to go on the fly.

[facthunter]

Car sharing is a crock. They thrash it and "maybe" you look after it. The rednecks get subsidised. I get incredible miles out of all my vehicles. Modern vehicles are assembled  in a way that has no resemblance at all to the days of yesteryear. Pre delivery inspections are unnecessary.. There's not a scratch of Paint off anywhere. Door gaps are even and doors close well. ' NO rattles or squeeks. Onetrack have a test drive of a Raptor.  I dare you to.. A majority of  FORD  is in other utes .   AMAROK and others

[facthunter]

I used to hate FORD too. Their Arrangement with Mazda worked well for both companies.

  Ford and Cosworth worked together. I think they are pretty "with  it", these days. The UK part had no idea how to Market anything.. A "Dead hand" on the company. for a long time.  Nev

[onetrack]

Test drive a RAPTOR?? I currently own TWO Rangers, that are the biggest pieces of crap out. There's always something going wrong with them, or something breaking on them.

One, the dual cab, has a vibrating rattle behind the glovebox that drive me nuts, and no-one can find it. It reverberates in tune with a certain engine RPM range.

 

I've only owned it a short time and I've had to rebuild the A/C system with a new A/C compressor, a new A/C on-off switch in the dash - and I've had to replace EVERY knob on the heating/cooling/fan controls, because they all broke. The parts sellers even make up complete kits of all the knobs that break on them!!

 

The electric window switch jams in the up position and pops the circuit breaker every second day. I've already had to replace the entire switch assembly for the mirrors, as it all stopped working!

 

Nothing on Fords is designed to last more than about 120,000kms. I swore off Fords back in the early 1990's, when I bought a new EA Falcon Ghia Wagon that cost me over $40,000 back then - and after 18 mths of breakages, I tried to sell it (with 70,000kms on the clock), and I got offered $16,000 for it!!

 

And last week, the dual cab overheated because it started using water without me realising it. No visible coolant leaks and no signs of coolant loss in the exhaust - but now it's got either a split EGR cooler (a common fault), or a blown head gasket, or a cracked head. I'm thoroughly sick of this Ford JUNK!!

 

Meantimes - my two Hiluxes (one petrol, one diesel) run beautifully every day, without a single thing ever going wrong with them.