Electric car thread

[spacesailor]

In old England! .

You would have been ' hit over the head ' & have joined HMS ship .

That's not bs . It was ' conscription  ' old school .

spacesailor

 

Edited May 17 by spacesailor
Missing letters

[nomadpete]

Well Spacey, that would have brought Jerry to our shores a lot sooner.

[spacesailor]

 

Jerry may not have survived the trip, as there wasa bonus at the voyage ènd , so the useless or tired slaves were discarded .

The thing is ! .

The Queen at the time " outlawed " it .

But,  it still was used for getting " Canon-fodder " .

spacesailor

Edited May 17 by spacesailor
Missing word

[Marty_d]

3 hours ago, spacesailor said:

" Canon-fodder "

People who pose for photos?

 

[spacesailor]

Old name for " conscripts " as opposed to general Issue .

The American equivalent. 

I wonder why , we never hear of those English " slaves " ,

Transported to America .

spacesailor

[red750]

I see BYD is outselling Tesla in Australia.

[old man emu]

Seems people trust the Chinese more than they trust the Yanks.

 

The number used to report BYD's sales might be larger than that for TESLA, but which way are the numbers going?

 

How can anyone say that the whole concept of producing EVs is environmentally friendly when you tally up all the resources that have been mined, refined, moved and manipulated to make the numbers of units that are sitting unsold around the world? In a few years we are going to be calling EVs the BetaMax of the 2020's.

[nomadpete]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

In a few years we are going to be calling EVs the BetaMax of the 2020's.

I disagree OME. Not EV's in general.

Maybe if overproduction of early models continues, there will be piles of unsellable 'early model' EV's. But I  am convinced thet EV's are here to stay (so are legacy fuel vehicles for jobs that they are best at).

[old man emu]

2 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Maybe if overproduction of early models continues, there will be piles of unsellable 'early model' EV's.

And will the environmentalist zealots be running that horrendous waste of energy and resources up a flagpole and saluting it?

[octave]

The death of EVs has been greatly exaggerated.

 

 

It is a brave person that makes these cataclysmic predictions based on such a small amount of evidence.  Although this very recent drop is quite large this graph shows that the upward trend has always zig-zagged.     

 

 

 

.    Adoption of new technology does take a rather predictable path. 

First there are the "innovators" followed by the early "adopters" Then after this population has been satisfied we reach a point called the "chasm"  All the enthusiasts have adopted but the "early majority" is still cautious.

 Certainly, this is a time when new technology can fail to gain wide acceptance but most technology we take for granted has taken this trajectory.

 

There are many reasons why EV sales in the FIRST QUARTER have reduced.    We are in fairly tough financial times and EVs still have a higher sticker price, if not a higher lifetime cost.   Most countries are winding back incentives. 

 

  EV sales collapse as subsidies and tax credits come to an abrupt halt

 

I would suggest that new car sales generally are depressed. This graph below admittedly is from one country but it suggest that the EV slump is not remarkable given the slump in petrol car sales. 

 

 

 

I would suggest that the joy and excitement by those in the iC car industry or related industries as well as for those who are just apprehensive about change is a little premature.  This conversation would be more sensible in a years time.

12 hours ago, old man emu said:

In a few years we are going to be calling EVs the BetaMax of the 2020's.

 

That is something that will become clear in the next few years. In terms of how we drive the wheels of a car, electric is just a no-brainer, isn't it?   What we are really talking about is how the energy to do this is stored.    Battery technology is far from the end of it's development.   The price of EVs has been too high for the average buyer, now the price (not the sky) is falling.   Some companies may not be able to survive but as long as there is a profit to be made EVs will continue to be built.   

 

I am often bemused by the almost hysterical zeal of the anti-EV crowd.  I am in an EV group on FB where owners and people who are interested in technology discuss things.  Almost daily someone will join the group solely to post FUD (if you don't know what FUD is look it up) This to me seems pretty unhinged.    My passion for EVs is dwarfed by the passion of the average anti EV person.   I am happy to discuss this subject with people who present good quality evidence but as we see just on this forum people are happy to post videos of firery crashes that actually turn out to be something quite different or clips about naughty boys unplugging EV charging cables whilst they are charging (you cant do that) or fires in carparks that turn out to be caused be a diesel vehicle (Lutton)

 

If you don't like EVs don't buy one.  If you resent government incentives (which are dwindling anyway) then talk to your local MP.    But I can't see why there is resentment towards those who make the choice to purchase an EV.

 

Technology has not reached a peak whereby we say anything new is scary or we just say let's halt thousands of years of innovation and change.    There is that quote which is attributed to several different sources "Everything that can be invented has been invented" allegedly said in 1899.

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

And will the environmentalist zealots be running that horrendous waste of energy and resources up a flagpole and saluting it?

Every industrial revolution has it's ups and downs.

 

The success of every new product rests on fashion, affordability and sales hype. Far more than environment.

 

If, 25 years ago, I  tried to convince you that everybody will soon be happily spending thousands of dollars on a new telephone every couple of years (and another thousand p.a. to use it), would you be sceptical? Yet it is the norm and nobody cares about the consequential whole-of-life pollution of it, nor of liquid fuelled personal transport.

[facthunter]

"SOME" people do. Other's like spreading disinformation.. False facts are a thriving pastime and Industry.  Nev

[spacesailor]

EV innovation. 

When I was a child , electric vehicles were everywhere  !.

Bread van / Milk cart / Trams . & others I have forgotten. 

I wonder why it didn't catch on , all the infrastructure was there .

Yet it all went away .

Only to make a comeback again , with a great price increase. 

" such is life "

spacesailor

[red750]

In a way, cameras are a parallel. When digital cameras came on the market, they were a novelty. Everyone had a film camera of some sort, but where are Kodak, Ilford, etc. now? Everyone now has one or more digital cameras of some kind, be they SLR or on your phone. Traditionalists still have film cameras, but finding film stock is becoming more difficult, and film processing labs are few and far between. You now need your own darkroom. The advantage of seeing your image instantly, modifying it electronically, and transmitting it via the internet have ensured the continued success of digital photography. When the recharging infrastructure catches up, and prices come down, electric vehicles will be the same.

[octave]

I think Red's camera analogy is correct. 

 

  When it comes to the charging infrastructure lagging behind, this is always the case with new tech.   We didn't wait for a network of airports before people started to travel by plane.  Early aviation was certainly not the most convenient method however early adopters enthusiastically became willing to fly.  The infrastructure soon followed.  Actually, I would argue that airport infrastructure still lags behind need. How many airports are hampered by being at their full capacity?  The early internet was abysmal compared to today.  The network's bandwidth could not keep up with the speed of the computers of the day.  Early petrol car drivers had difficulties purchasing fuel.    

 

Something I find annoying is how the anti-EV crowd presents the worst-case situation to illustrate the so-called fatal flaw in EV tech.    "I can't drive through the outback"  they will say.   If that is what you want to do then certainly EVs are not yet ready to do this easily. In the EV group am in people document their trips around Australia and through the outback.   At this stage, I would liken it to cross-country flying in light or rec aviation. You need to do planning.  In the case of aircraft it is a question of "where can I get fuel", "What is my backup plan if the airfield unexpectedly can not supply fuel"?   At this stage this kind of EV driving is for enthusiasts and early adopters.   Regional and city driving is quite a different matter.

 

I do suspect some folks feel that through their lifetime they have built up a good deal of knowledge about internal combustion engines and that this may now be devalued. This occurs in many fields and is unavoidable.  It is not all bad, in the future when IC vehicles are more of a rarity those folks with great knowledge will probably be admired like the people who keep steam trains running.

 

I recently had a great conversation with my 90-year father-in-law.  He retired about 30 years ago. He used to work at Tesltra in the materials testing branch.   This department used to assess and test everything Testra purchased.  This could be rubber gloves or shovels or switchboards or generators anything really. When he was still working he took me and my wife on a tour of the laboratory.  There were amazing things such as a room full of lead acid batteries whose sole purpose was to test how fuses blew and to photograph with high-speed cameras   

 

On a recent visit we were sitting in his loungeroom and he was showing me his new lounge suite that had multiple push button adjustments.  He made the point that this would not have been doable a few years ago because the motors would have been too big and heavy.  I was impressed with his knowledge both of old electric motor tech and how motors have developed.  Sometimes talking to an older person can be a bit of a drag if all they know or care about is the past and they have no interest in the future.   There are many things I don't want to discuss with my father in law but discussing technology is always fun and enlightening. 

 

 

[spacesailor]

I bought the first digital ( type ) Canon camera .

No ' retail ' processing , Canon headquarters only ,

  or a tech- worker with the right equipment. 

Untill I bought a ' video capture card ' with software .

And.  Still it resides forlornly in a cupboard somewhere. 

Awaiting that " dumping day " .

spacesailor

 

[red750]

Spacey, advertise it in the Non Aviation section of Rec Flying classifieds, and pick up a few bucks. Canon is a good brand.

[spacesailor]

It is a " none digital "  ' Analog ' camera , using a small floppy disk .

Must be worth a fortune,  to the right people .

spacesailor

[old man emu]

On 18/05/2024 at 3:38 PM, octave said:

I think Red's camera analogy is correct. 

It is correct in as far as it relates to items that are not considered expensive. I remember buying my first pocket calculator for about $75 in the 1970s. A lot of money for a student then, but worth it. I also later bought a calculator programmable in GW-Basic. Now that sort of technology costs pennies.

 

However, for the average consumer, the purchase of a car, regardless of motive power, is an expensive outlay. It won't be the want to stop burning petroleum, nor adoption of whizz-bangery technology that stops the common person buying an EV AT THE MOMENT, It will be the neuralgia coming from the hip-pocket nerve.

 

As for the late 2023 dip in EV sales. Let's see the figures come June and July 2024 to se if there is a discernible trend. 

[old man emu]

I passed a Highway Patrol car yesterday and it brought back memories of my time as a tyre biter, Today I travelled through my old hunting grounds on the way to have lunch with my kids. These things made me realise that the Police will be one Government agency that will not be taking up EVs for patrol work.

 

The reasons are two-fold. First, the police need their vehicles to be instantly available for use 24/7. The average Police Patrol is only allocated one or two vehicles for General Duties, and a HWP unit might only have half a dozen vehicles attached to it. To ensure that the General Duties police always have a vehicle to use, each vehicle they presently have would need another two - one being charge, and one charged ready for swapping with the one that is out on the road. Having to do that would triple the vehicle purchase cost for each Patrol.

 

The second reason relates the the HWP. I worked the Hume Highway. It was normal to clock up around 250 kms each shift. At the end of the shift, the car was refuelled and handed over immediately to the next shift, ready to go. Also, that sort of duty required many high speed runs during a shift as I chased down an offender. It is common knowledge that such high speed running quickly drains the battery of an EV. Perhaps a battery fully charged at the beginning of a shift wouldn't last the full shift. In the case of the HWP, you would need at least one more vehicle for each one it already had. And don't forget the costs involved in wiring up a police car for its radio and lights as well as the signage.

 

I agree that some units, such as Defectives, Crime Scene, and the bosses could use EVs, but these are in the minority.

[octave]

https://www.police1.com/police-products/vehicles/patrol/articles/electric-vehicles-prove-they-can-handle-police-work-kh6xMkZRKTGuuZzF/#:~:text=Can electric vehicles handle police,serve as regular patrol cars.

 

https://thedriven.io/2024/04/16/quicker-and-cheaper-police-departments-add-tesla-model-y-evs-to-fleet/

 

https://www.drive.com.au/news/nsw-police-highway-patrol-take-delivery-of-bmw-ix-electric-car/

 

https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/electric-vehicles/evs-of-interest-to-australian-police/2022-03-01/87169.html

 

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/us-police-department-switching-entire-fleet-to-tuned-teslas

 

https://electrek.co/2023/05/09/tesla-model-y-police-dept-go-all-electric/

 

 

 

Edited May 19 by octave

[Litespeed]

OME, 

 

The exact same could be said of police motorbikes, they need refilling just like IC cars do.

 

And breaks to pee are needed plus coffee, donuts etc.

The new fast charge cars can do 10-80% in 10 to 15 minutes.

 

I don't see it as a issue esp given the regen ability actually suits the highway patrol model well.

Edited May 19 by Litespeed

[spenaroo]

speaking of motorcycles.

 

took an electric one for a ride Saturday.

was surprised - I wanted to dislike it, as its against everything a "proper biker" likes.

no gears, no clutch, no noise. basically a postie bike.

But I cant deny they are the future,

was a simple dash layout, just the speed and the torque/regen of the motor.

 

the weight was an interesting duality.

It felt small and light like a 125cc dirt bike. its incredibly well balanced with the weight low

but you realize its over 200kg, when it doesn't lift a wheel under the cannon like acceleration, or brutal braking.

and the brakes are brutal - I could brake almost to the point of being thrown over the handlebars - I was the limit not the bike.
the regen and front brakes really work well together to stop in a controlled manner.

I would happily have one in my garage, and if i won the lottery will call them tomorrow and order it....

but they are 23k+ and little to no second hand market.
I normally buy 10 year old bikes, seems to be my sweet spot of price.
but a battery in these will only last 10 years?

and even then we all know battery drain is a thing. the 200km range is okay now.
but how does it wear? is that 150km in 5 years, or 100km in 8?

same problem Hertz is having with Tesla, not many people buying electric - want a second hand one.

and those that do are worried about battery life.

Edited May 20 by spenaroo

[old man emu]

https://www.police1.com/police-products/vehicles/patrol/articles/electric-vehicles-prove-they-can-handle-police-work-kh6xMkZRKTGuuZzF/#:~:text=Can electric vehicles handle police,serve as regular patrol cars.

 

This article references a county of Bagersville Indiana, with an area of 48.5 sq km. Where I was working, Goulburn City Mulwaree has an area of 32220 sq km. Big differences in distances to be travelled.

[octave]

6 minutes ago, old man emu said:

https://www.police1.com/police-products/vehicles/patrol/articles/electric-vehicles-prove-they-can-handle-police-work-kh6xMkZRKTGuuZzF/#:~:text=Can electric vehicles handle police,serve as regular patrol cars.

 

This article references a county of Bagersville Indiana, with an area of 48.5 sq km. Where I was working, Goulburn City Mulwaree has an area of 32220 sq km. Big differences in distances to be travelled.

 

21 hours ago, old man emu said:

These things made me realise that the Police will be one Government agency that will not be taking up EVs for patrol work.

 

 

 

OME almost every state police force has some pure EVs and many more hybrid vehicles.  This is also true of the US and Britain.   Did you read all of the articles?  NSW Highway Patrol does in fact have an EV NSW Police highway patrol takes delivery of BMW iX electric car   Of course there are areas where EVs would not yet be suitable, just as some areas are suited to 4WD vehicles.   

 

Queensland Police Kia EV6 electric highway patrol car earns its stripes

 

Blue, red, and green: Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Toyota Mirai police cars trialled

 

Victoria Police add Tesla Model X to highway patrol fleet

 

World's First 100% EV Police Fleet Saves Taxpayers $300k

 

No one is saying that they should do a wholesale replacement of Police cars with EVs.  Certainly, experience overseas has been generally good.   The average police car in most areas do not travel huge distances each day but I was surprised to read how long police cars spend idling.  It is obvious that police vehicles need to keep pace with the cars that are out there.   

 

"While Acting Superintendent Flanders is full of praise for the Kia, he admits there may be some police officers who may need to be convinced of the capability of the electric car.

"Let me be blunt – I think there'll be some old hard noses who might struggle for the first few minutes of driving the car and say 'why am I in an electric vehicle?'. But like me, after the first couple of minutes, you're sold. It's just so many streets ahead of what our old vehicles used to be," he said."

 

I think most of the pure EVs are still in the evaluation phase so if they are not up to the job they will surely be rejected. This is good, isn't it?  You can't just become stuck in time and not be willing to innovate.  Many EVs can easily outrun iC police vehicles.