Electric car thread

[facthunter]

OME there's not a lot of secrets in the Motor game and Toyota took a wrong turn Speculating on things like ammonia and hydrogen might keep their ICE technology visible. They've also strongly pushed the Hybrid concept which uses the worst of both Worlds.   Nev

[facthunter]

Hybrids are most prone to fire of all categories. . The incidence of Electric car fires has been massively over blown and a lot of it IS FAKED.  Nev

[spacesailor]

I have noticed.  A fairly large number of vehicles 

Are not insured,  or at best " third party only "

I am thinking if joining them .

Full insurance is out of hand,  high premiums & 

Lots of loopholes,  to loose your car & no payout. 

I only had one car stolen , NRMA took six months to payout , but only after I refused to get the replacement car " full comprehensive insured " . As at that time I hadn't been payed or even acknowledged as a customer. 

My Mitsubishi delica they refused to insure as it was the same as a RR .An import .

spacesailor

Edited June 18 by spacesailor
AI . took changed to retook

[spacesailor]

I have noticed.  A fairly large number of vehicles 

Are not insured,  or at best " third party only "

I am thinking if joining them .

Full insurance is out of hand,  high premiums & 

Lots of loopholes,  to loose your car & no payout. 

I only had one car stolen , NRMA retook six months to payout but only after I refused to get the replacement car " full comprehensive insured " . As at that time I hadn't been payed or even acknowledged as a customer. 

My Mitsubishi delica they refused to insure as it was the same as a RR .An import .

spacesailor

[red750]

I guess your logic could be extended to power storage batteries attached to solar panels. I see a lot of TV commercials advising people with such batteries to have them checked, somewhat like a recall notice. Whether its just the number out there, but escooters and electric bikes seem to have a propensity for catching fire when recharging.

[old man emu]

11 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The incidence of Electric car fires has been massively over blown and a lot of it IS FAKED.

If you had read what I had written, I acknowledged that the ratio of EV fires to EVs in use was very low. I accept that, and I also accept that there are a lot of faked reports. My argument is that it is not the frequency of these fires, but the potential damage even an isolated fire can cause to property and the environment. 

 

If I'm so wrong, why do the actuarial experts advise insurance companies to charge what is charged (or claimed to be charged) to insure EVs?

[facthunter]

I DO read what you write OME but it doesn't appear to be a very even handed view . EV's cost more to insure because of higher vehicle value and the specialised nature of the repairs. No Mention of fire risk. This info directly from the Biggest insurer in the game. Suncorp.  Nev

[octave]

Toyota claims it will be releasing its solid-state batteries in 2027  https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/

 

 

[facthunter]

Definitely READ the whole article. .   Nev

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

EV's cost more to insure because of higher vehicle value and the specialised nature of the repairs.

How does the premium for a $60k EV compare to a $60k ICE? 

 

I don't think that an insurance company really cares if they write off a $60k EV or ICE that is irreparable. They have been accounting for that likelihood since they started offering vehicle insurance. Where they might have the greatest concern is that the insured vehicle might possibly be responsible for millions in collateral damage if burned. 

 

Just look at the number of ICEs that are torched on the driveways and in garages of the purveyors of recreational chemicals. The damage to surrounding property, and the environment would hardly ever run into the millions of dollars because the heat of such fires is so much less than that of a EV battery.

 

You have to remember that the provision of insurance is just one big gambling game. The insurance companies study the field and set the odds so that they are the winners. It's only occasionally that a bolter comes home. 

[octave]

We need not speculate on why EVs are more expensive to insure at this stage.  Why speculate when we can find out the true answer?

 

 

 

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/why-are-electric-cars-more-expensive-to-insure/

 

 

[red750]

Part of an article in the Hertald-Sun.

 

Australia’s electric vehicle market is surging again as a new rival to Tesla takes off, but the boom has sparked fresh warnings for motorists.

 

Chinese giant BYD, which overtook Tesla as the world’s number one EV maker in January, just posted a new record for monthly sales in Australia even as Elon Musk’s company is forced to slash prices.

 

With more affordable options than Tesla — the BYD Atto 3 starts from $44,499, versus the now discounted $54,900 starting price for the base Tesla Model 3, which still costs up to $80,900 for the Performance variant — BYD has quickly emerged as a popular alternative for eco-conscious Aussies on a budget.

 

BYD sold more than 1900 cars in May, well above its previous record of 1622.

 

Overall monthly sales of battery EVs saw a slight increase, accounting for 8.1 per cent of new cars sold, up from 7.7 per cent in May 2023, according to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI).

EV sales in Australia have grown from about 1900 per month in 2022 to 8000 per month this year.

[old man emu]

Let's ignore repairing a damaged EV. If the quote to repair exceeds the sum insured, the insurance company will write off the vehicle -EV or ICE. They have accounted for that in formulating the premium. 

 

For the insurance company, the main worry is the cost of reimbursing property owners for damage arising from an incident caused by a vehicle. Drive an ICE or EV through a shop window and the insurer will have to pay out for the damage. Set an ICE alight in an underground carpark and a car on wither side might go up too, but the building's structure won't be critically affected. Let a lone EV suffer thermal runaway in an underground garage, and the heat may seriously damage the building's strength. Then it's big bucks for the insurer.

 

That's the risk that is driving up the cost of insuring an EV.

[octave]

1 minute ago, old man emu said:

That's the risk that is driving up the cost of insuring an EV.

 

No it isn't at least according to the Insurance Council of Australia. If your assertion was true then surely petrol and diesel Kias and Hyundais would also be expensive to insure given the fires which necessitated a recall of 3.4 million vehicles at least until fixed.

 

https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-engine-fire-recall-park-outside-93d012a52e7b884889cdaf2e6c22a458

 

"Hyundai and Kia are recalling nearly 3.4 million vehicles in the U.S. and telling owners to park them outside due to the risk of engine compartment fires."

 

EVs, as I believe you have pointed out in the past are at this stage more expensive to repair (although less likely to need repair) and there are not (at this stage) so many qualified mechanics around.

 

 

       

[old man emu]

10 minutes ago, red750 said:

market is surging

Surge (n):  a sudden large increase, typically a temporary one.

 

12 minutes ago, red750 said:

Overall monthly sales of battery EVs saw a slight increase, accounting for 8.1 per cent of new cars sold, up from 7.7 per cent in May 2023

I wouldn't call that "slight increase" a surge. I call it flowery language, with a clear bias. I would be equally willing to call "plummeting" flowery language if sales of anything of interest fell a percentage point and a bit.

 

And just think about the way we describe things like tidal surges, and surging waves, or surging crowds. The concept contains that idea of a rapid increase above normal levels followed by a return to normal levels.

 

Once again,I smell some diddling with figures. How many new cars were sold in May 2024, and how many in May 2023. If more new cars were sold in May 2023 than in May 2024 AND the same number of EVs were sold in both months, then the percentage of EV of the total sales number would increase. That's simple maths. 

[octave]

A statement from the Insurance Council of Australia showed there were several reasons why the cost of insurance premiums for electric vehicles varied to petrol or diesel cars.

In the first instance, electric vehicles were generally expensive vehicles to purchase.

 

 

Dealing with damaged electric vehicle batteries is "time and labour consuming" and "required specialty equipment and disposal (recycling) methods", according to Ms Davies.(Getty: Sean Gallup)

Other reasons included:

• The technology and parts in an electric vehicle are more expensive to produce and replace, specifically motor parts and battery
• Repairing damaged electric vehicles requires importing parts to Australia
• There are few electric vehicle service centres around Australia that can repair electric vehicles, vehicles may need to be transported to a distant location to be repaired
• Repairing electric vehicles requires specialty tradespeople, at present there are few of these trained people in Australia
• Dealing with damaged electric vehicle batteries is time and labour consuming. It also requires specialty equipment and disposal (recycling) methods
• The supply chain in Australia is in its infancy leading to higher costs, the situation here will not improve until the demand and then supply increases

The ICA statement also pointed out "many factors are considered when calculating a premium".

 

[old man emu]

8 minutes ago, octave said:

EVs, as I believe you have pointed out in the past are at this stage more expensive to repair (although less likely to need repair) and there are not (at this stage) so many qualified mechanics around.

Let's ignore routing maintenance which may only involve minor adjustments and replacement of consumables like tyres, brake pads, wiper blade. What I am saying is that if you drive a $60k EV or ICE into a ditch and roll it before hitting a tree, both are going to be written off, and the insurer has accounted for that in the premium.

 

Safety recalls are not unusual. Go to Woolies or Coles or Aldi and see the recall notices exhibited on their notice boards. Why should recall notices for vehicles be any different?

[octave]

5 minutes ago, old man emu said:

What I am saying is that if you drive a $60k EV or ICE into a ditch and roll it before hitting a tree, both are going to be written off, and the insured has accounted for that in the premium.

But insurance is just calculated not just on right off but on repairs from lesser accidents. I would guess that the majority of insurance claims would be for fender benders. The percentage of cars actually written off would surely be small. For example,  if a  60k Tesla gets back into in a carpark it will probably cost more to repair than a 60k car that does not have aluminium panels.  

Edited June 18 by octave

[octave]

By way of an example, I dented my son's Tesla.  I caught a road sign on a ridiculously designed turn in a hilly NZ suburb.   The panel in question was aluminium.   This must add to the cost of the majority of repairs that the insurer has to pay for.  

 

Aluminium

The second part of this blog were going to look at is aluminium. Teslas have aluminium panels – this material is a lot lighter than steel. But it’s a lot tougher and harder to repair. Unlike steel, it has no “metal memory”. This means when we perform a PDR repair on steel, the dented area stays in place once pushed, but aluminium doesn’t do this, as its so strong.

 

[old man emu]

Did you ever stop and think that although the insurance companies are publishing the reasons you quoted above, they are playing the collateral damage costs cards close to their chests? They are stating the obvious to the public in relation to the costs of repairing products of new technology, and the public can readily accept those reasons. However, just think of the massive payouts the insurers were up for when things like high voltage transmission lines failed and started catastrophic bush fires. Those are the events that send insurers cloacas clacking.

[facthunter]

You're ALL over the Place  on  this one OME. Wrecked EV's have quite a value in the remains of the Battery Aluminium is NOT stronger Octave and it stretches  and is difficult to work. High tensile  steel structurally cannot be repaired either.. A small Kink and she's a write off '.

The Tesla chassis is cast aluminium  that could be recycled. I'm led to believe the Newer ones are not repairable the same as  Motorcycle Aluminium frames are not allowed either.' 

   What SUNCORP say doesn't matter??? They'd look pretty foolish in the industry they are THE MAJOR player in IF they put out rubbish under their Name.

 I mentioned the Fantastic BYD months ago. (Build Your Dream)  There's lots of competition The market will decide as it always does. I'm and old codger who can accept change, contrary to the  general   view portrayed out there. I went to Gas when it was 4 cents a litre and turbo diesel as soon as it came out. THEN the difference in economy was considerable and diesel was cheap. But it stinks if it isn't the latest technology and the latest high tech injected petrol motors are just as economical.  Nev

Edited June 18 by facthunter
typo

[octave]

36 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Aluminium is NOT stronger Octave and it stretches  and is difficult to work.

 

I think the quote (not mine) was tougher, not stronger.  This is not an are I have much knowledge about. 

 

 Generally speaking, steel is stronger than aluminum. That said, once the lighter weight of aluminum is factored into the equation, aluminum comes out on top with a superior strength-to-weight ratio. Identifying which metal has the better strength for your application will depend on your design's flexibility.

 

I think this may be what the quote was referring to.   I cant tell you how many people have told me that you can not repair dents in aluminium.  Whilst it is more difficult and requires more specialised skills it can and is done.

 

The fact that it is more difficult and requires more specialised skills is I would suggest the main reason for insurance being more expensive.

 

I would suggest that because of the special skills required the economics would in many cases favour panel replacement.

 

Repairing Aluminum Body Panels With Collision Damage

 

 

Edited June 18 by octave

[facthunter]

No One panel beats any panel these days unless it's for an  expensive restoration I can do it because I'm old school and can shrink it. The replica Cobra is worth looking up.  Nev,

[octave]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

No One panel beats any panel these days unless it's for an  expensive restoration

 

Yes, I imagine the economics would usually favour panel replacement for most modern cars.

[octave]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

Did you ever stop and think that although the insurance companies are publishing the reasons you quoted above, they are playing the collateral damage costs cards close to their chests?

I am perplexed by this.   Logic would suggest if car A and car B and if these 2 cars have the same monetary value but car A is more expensive to repair then why would car A not cost more to insure?    OME you seem to be working overtime to prove that EVs are the work of the devil.