Electric car thread

[facthunter]

Till the car makes an earth the  PD is contained within the confines of the vehicle What we are looking at as unsafe is when High Tension wires are down near a car or people walking on the ground near the WIRES. Nev

[octave]

20 minutes ago, old man emu said:

That's good OH&S practice in a controlled environment, but think what usually happens in the immediate aftermath of a prang. Good Samaritans rush to assist the occupants, but they would not have the the knowledge of the potential danger, nor readily available protective clothing. Imagine such a prang happening on a wet day.

I would think by now that real-world experience and statistics would be interesting.  I believe in Nowray around 25% of the car fleet is EV.   I would imagine that the accident rate would be similar to other comparable countries. The question I would ask is are there significant numbers of first untrained first responders being injured?   Indeed there should be statistics about how many accidents result in significant battery damage or fires. 

 

Anyone helping out after an accident in any vehicle should be cautious.  I had a van I was driving catch fire. The engine was under the seat so the cabin quickly filled with smoke.  There was little I could do about it. The fire brigade arrived and they all had breathing equipment not available to me or any other bystanders. 

 

The idea that educating the public about EVs obviously good.   I am sure in the early days of petrol-engined cars the public had to learn the dangers of flammable liquids.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, octave said:

The question I would ask is are there significant numbers of first untrained first responders being injured? 

A fair question. 

 

No doubt if one searched for the data it could be uncovered.

 

What I wrote was simply musing on the statement in the material that was quoted. I didn't mean what I wrote to be anything pro or con EVs. I was simply looing at assessing risk, and when I do so, I look at two things - is a risk possible and if so, what is the probability of its occuring. Clearly the risk is possible, but if we recognise it early in our learning about it, preventative measures can be formulated. Just look at any user's manual for an electric device such as a kettle or toaster. You'll find that the manual spends more time warning of dangers than it does in how to operate the device.

[spacesailor]

" probable Danger " ,

Then 240 volts shouldn't be used in aluminium skined 

Caravan's.  They act like a super sized condenser .

They will kill at a touch .  ( it has happened ) .

spacesailor

 

[red750]

BYD seem about to release some new models including their smallest model, the Seagull, possibly known in Australia as the Dolphin Mini. It is expected to be the lowest cost EV.

 

For more details, click here.

 

[onetrack]

I've seen numerous IC-engine cars catch fire after a crash, thanks to the bonnet shorting out the battery terminals. It's standard procedure when you come across a prang to disconnect the battery to limit any chance of fire - even more so, if someone is trapped in the vehicle.

 

I have no idea what the procedure is for disabling an EV battery in the event of a prang, but it would sure pay to find out.

All the EV's seem to have well-protected batteries, so it's relatively rare for an EV battery to be damaged enough to short out and cause a fire. However, I'd still be concerned about damaged wiring causing major short circuits, with potential fire from flammable materials in the vehicle interior.

[nomadpete]

The implication from Octave's post (on ANCAP testing), is that the vehicle 'impact sensor' will trip the battery's internal circuit breaker. So I think that explains why their crash testing failed to cause any electrical or fire risks. Further, the usual location of EV batteries, is away from the usual crumple zones. So physical damage is unlikely.

Not saying I expect them to be totally bulletproof, but I don't  see EV's  as mobile bombs.

[nomadpete]

Not sure where this is, but it gives you an idea of the impact of csg energy supply. Multiply by thousands, then Add in the evaporation dams, salt damage, pumping stations, electricity grid, substations.

 

In contrast (we are talking about the impact of EV'S), there are increasing numbers of households using their own rooftop solar panels to charge their EV.

 

It all looks like a win for the motorist, and for the environment.

 

[kgwilson]

EV fires are incredibly rare but there has been a huge amount of disinformation spread by social media and the sensationalist press looking for headlines that they fail to verify. Between 2010 and June 2023 there were 4 EV fires in Australia. One was arson and the other 3 were parked in structures that burnt down. EV Firesafe has compiled the data and an EV has a 0.0012% chance of catching fire. Petrol and diesel cars have 0.1% chance of catching fire, about 100 times more likely but still a small percentage. Hybrids are more than 300 times more likely to catch fire than either pure ICE or EVs.

 

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/how-many-electric-cars-have-caught-fire-australia/

 

If a lithium ion battery experiences thermal runaway and catches fire the heat is extreme and they are almost impossible to put out until all the energy is dissipated & that depends upon the state of charge when the thermal runaway was caused. There have been quite a few fires caused in rubbish tips and even in rubbish trucks from old li-ion batteries that have been thrown out. The other main cause is people charging cheap electric scooters, bikes etc with incorrect chargers that have not built in limitations to prevent over charging. In some cases they keep charging till the battery explodes with pretty serious consequences.

 

EVs have numerous safety mechanisms to stop anything like this ever happening. The battery charger is built in to the vehicle and will only charge at a given rate applicable to the battery no matter how much power you try to pump in. AC power first has to be converted to DC via the inbuilt inverter & the maximum from a single phase is limited to 32 amps or 7.4 kW. Some EVs will accept 3 phase power so can charge to a maximum of 22 kW. Most EVs have 400 volt architecture and some can charge at 350 kW from a DC supercharger. My EV has a maximum DC charging rate of 140 kW. Some of the new expensive EVs have 800 volt architecture and can charge at over 500 kW. In theory that means a car with a 100kWh battery could be charged from 0 to 100% in 12 minutes.

 

Also the battery chemistry of EV batteries is not the same as your mobile phone or eScooter and is far more resistant to thermal runaway, plus of course the battery isolation function all EVs have if involved in a crash. Without it they would get a zero ANCAP rating. The newer LFP batteries are even better than the most common NMC EV batteries and BYD have produced a video showing nails and steel bars puncturing their blade batteries with no effect at all. The area punctured is isolated and the battery continues to operate. Sort of similar to self sealing fuel tanks in aircraft.

[spacesailor]

Thanks  kg.

Very informative. 

spacesailor

[old man emu]

8 hours ago, kgwilson said:

In theory

(NOTE: Just quoting those few words to attract KGW's attention)

 

I accept what you say about the ability of the batteries to accept high voltage inputs, and that is great for a single vehicle, but the problem for the community, and the widespread adoption of EVs, is that the current electricity distribution infrastructure cannot deliver the amount of electricity to charge a lot of EVs at the same time while also servicing the other demands of the community. It is like trying to fill a swimming pool with a garden hose. It can be done, but not rapidly. 

 

As for the limits on charging a battery, don't the manufacturers say that for the longevity of the battery, it should not be discharged below 20% capacity, and not charged above 80%? That means that a 100 kWh battery is only useful for 60kWh. 

[octave]

OME maybe if you are genuinely curious you should do a search for bi-directional charging and V2G (vehicle to grid). The old model of the grid is like the water system. The water flows one way from the reservoir to the tap in the house i.e. electricity flows from the power station to the house.  The modern smart grid is more like the internet, electricity flows both ways. This gives the individual the opportunity to buy electricity and sell electricity.  The neighsayers seem to present a situation where EVs are only a draw on the grid.  Renewables need storage. This is where grid batteries come in.  Imagine when most cars are EV.  A 70 to 100KWh battery at almost every house.  These things are not just stupid ideas but they are being put into practice mostly overseas at this stage.

27 minutes ago, old man emu said:

As for the limits on charging a battery, don't the manufacturers say that for the longevity of the battery, it should not be discharged below 20% capacity, and not charged above 80%? That means that a 100 kWh battery is only useful for 60kWh. 

It is true that 20% to 80% is optimal however in if my son is going on a road trip you do charge perhaps the night before to 100%,    It is not my practice to fill my petrol-driven car to its full fuel capacity because it does not make sense to drag around all that extra weight.  At the other end of the scale, I usually don't run it down to near-empty.

 

 

[old man emu]

I am aware of this two-way flow of electricity into and out of the grid from either EV or static batteries. That's how householders get credited with supplying excess electricity from their solar panels. I believe that electricity can also be drawn from EV batteries. That's not my point. I'm talking about the ability of the present infrastructure to supply sufficient electricity in a street to charge several EVs and at the same time meet the demands of all the other domestic electrical appliances in the house in the street, including those houses of the Luddites who drive ICEs.

 

As I look out of my window, I see power lines which carry relatively low voltage electricity to domestic users. They are like garden hoses. I also know that there are other power lines that carry very high voltages between generation sites and distribution substations. They are like fire hoses. A garden hose cannot deliver water at the same rate as a fire hose. A low voltage line cannot deliver electricity at the same rate as a high voltage line.

 

What I am saying is that the electricity infrastructure cannot meet the demands of both rapid charge EVs and other, non-EV requirements of the community. It's nice to know that the potential exists to fully charge a 100 kWh battery in 12 minutes, but can the infrastructure realise that potential if several EVs in the same street are trying to do the same thing at the same time? 

[octave]

The present electrical system certainly would not sustain 100% EV adoption. The present system will never be sufficient for the future. As an example it is often said that Australia should do more manufacturing rather than just shipping raw minerals overseas.  One could say that we don't have the power system to support that so lets not do it. Th point is that history is not over. The grid has always grown to meet our needs.

 

Although Norway is blessed with hydro I don't believe it has had to rebuild its poles and wires.  The neighsayers seem to think that those in favour of the transition to EV have not even given a thought to how ERVs will be charged in the future.  There are plenty of scientific papers on the subject and experts even here in Australia such as Blorn Sturmberg at ANU School of Engineering.

24 minutes ago, old man emu said:

It's nice to know that the potential exists to fully charge a 100 kWh battery in 12 minutes, but can the infrastructure realise that potential if several EVs in the same street are trying to do the same thing at the same time? 

Norway?

 

I guess if you are just sitting back and scratching your head and saying but how they...........?      There is a wealth of good quality information out there.  It is actually intellectually stimulating to take on new knowledge and not just dwell in the past.

 

Here is a video that you might find interesting.

 

 

Yes, Norway has enormous supplies of hydro and other renewables but they have not totally rebuilt their grid.  Two cars and many more can be charged simultaneously.  

 

 

[old man emu]

31 minutes ago, octave said:

The present electrical system certainly would not sustain 100% EV adoption.

Finally! You agree with what I am saying as the situation stands in July 2024.

 

32 minutes ago, octave said:

Th point is that history is not over. The grid has always grown to meet our needs.

I fully and wholeheartedly agree with that statement. Only a fool would say that the grid had reached its carrying capacity limit. One can always string another wire.

 

34 minutes ago, octave said:

It is actually intellectually stimulating to take on new knowledge and not just dwell in the past.

If there has one thing that has been a constant during my life it has been change. In fact one could not get employment promotion in many fields if one could not adapt to change. 

 

The problem at present is not the present and future technology of the EV, but the unholy push to swamp the many systems that ground vehicle transport impinges upon.

 

You imply that I am ignorant of all matters dealing with the introduction of EVs. I might not have a doctorate in electrical engineering, or even a trades certificate in motor vehicle repairs, but I consider that I have a smidgen of knowledge and experience to get the picture and see the pros and cons as they exist at the moment. What annoys me is the pushing of the agenda by people with political power but little if any knowledge of the interrelationships that exist between all the elements involved,

 

And, Octave, I don't include you in that group because you have gained the experience in operating in a renewable world. 

[red750]

Look what Scotland is doing...

 

Scotland's EV superhub.

[red750]

And then there's this.

[facthunter]

Petrol stations can run out of fuel also. When IC engines first came out there weren't enough  fuel stations either.   Nev

[octave]

15 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Finally! You agree with what I am saying as the situation stands in July 2024.

I think I have made this point many times.   I have often made to point that no one here will be forced to go EV because it would be impossible to make that huge change in a short time.   Throwing away every IC car that still has a few years left in it is not desirable from an energy-to-build perspective.  Again using Norway as an example they are aggressively EV and have been for a few years and have got to around 25%.  We are a lot less aggressive in this country so it will take years and years before we are anywhere near Norway's figures.   Again I don't have strong feelings about whether an individual is for or against buying an EV. I am interested in factual arguments.  For now and for quite a few years into the future we will all have the choice to buy an EV or an IC.   I do believe that it will not be bans on IC that be the major factor in the mass uptake of EVs but it will simply be the cheaper more convenient choice.   Many of the criticisms of EVs are a little old hat. For example, cartoons showing someone pitching a tent whilst waiting for their car to charge are based on bygone days. Likewise cartoons that show an EV plug ultimately into a coal-fired power station are also out of date. I am not suggesting you post this kind of stuff but it is a constant in my mail/social media.

 

28 minutes ago, old man emu said:

What annoys me is the pushing of the agenda by people with political power but little if any knowledge of the interrelationships that exist between all the elements involved,

Again I think there is plenty of expertise from adequately qualified people. I guess as a counter-argument I could suggest that the anti-side is often guilty of "pushing an agenda without knowledge of recent developments in new technology.   In terms of pushing an agenda, I rarely start these conversations I usually read something and think, "Well hang on that doesn't seem correct" and I feel the need to toss a few facts in.  As a blatant example, someone here (not you OME) suggested that to blow the horn on a Tesla you have to use the screen.   This is false.    We discussed tyres being horrendously expensive.  I asked my son (who has read some of this thread) about tyres and he sends me a link to the tyres he uses which are pretty much the same price as for IC.    

 

If I am a zealot then I am a zealot for well-researched opinions backed with evidence.   Whilst I would acknowledge that there are EV zealots I would suggest that there are as many if not more anti EV zealots.   I find it hard to understand the passion that some people have.   There is a thread on this forum about motorcycles.   I am not a fan of motor cycles and I don't have any ambition to ride one however I have no interest in going on that thread and arguing about whether motorcycles are too dangerous or noisy.

[facthunter]

There are electric Harley Davidsons. I've seen them and uncanny to ride, I believe. Very few motorcycles have a range of over 250 kms on petrol .  Electric motors have an efficiency of about 95%. That has to be worth something.   I've spent my whole life mucking with piston engines  While they are now very highly developed they are  really abominations. the way they work. From Petrol head to realist. It's taken a while. Nev

[kgwilson]

The newer superchargers are being installed with a battery buffer so they can deliver the full 350kW to the car even if the grid supply is only 150kW or less. During the day there is often a glut of power from rooftop solar and this leads to the spot price going negative. This is the time to fill up your batteries if you have them.

 

I have just changed to an electricity supply plan that provides me with free power for 2 hours a day every day from midday to 2pm. As a retiree this works for me. My peak rate has fallen to 32c/kWh (was 42c) shoulder from 36c/kWh to 32c & off peak has increased from 27c/kWh to 32c/kWh and also my daily supply charge  has fallen from $1.45 to $1.10. The downside of this plan is that my solar feed in tariff has gone from 7c/kWh to 1.4c/kWh. Based on my power consumption from the old plan the new one is considerable cheaper for me, plus I get free energy for the car.

 

I was managing my charging based on solar generation but now I don't have to as when i am home the car automatically charges for the 2 free hours a day. I'll only need 2 to 3 days a week of free power in order to never have to pay for any charging at all, that is unless I go on a long trip.

 

The existing grid is old and incapable of delivering what we need for the future. Successive governments have failed dismally in this regard and are trying to play catch up now. In NSW if you have a single phase 100 amp supply the maximum you can supply back to the network is 5kW/h so people with large solar systems on their roof have to use it or it just dissipates as heat. This is to protect the ageing network from falling over and causes the spot price to go negative.

 

Future needs are not just EVs, everything is going electric. Look at power tools, lawnmowers, chainsaws, whipper snippers, eBikes & scooters. Then of course there is battery storage on every scale you can think of.

[onetrack]

A major concern regarding the charging infrastructure is in red750's Yahoo article outlining the Scottish charging infrastructure - and that concern is, that the amount of money required to fully develop a large charging infrastructure, is going to become dependent on private money.

And when private money gets involved in important infrastructure development and construction, it wants major financial returns (note that many companies seek a minimum of 12% ROI, and some seek up to 35% ROI).

 

This then, leads to excessive charges being applied by the infrastructure owners, and monopolies developing. Whilst we may have anti-monopoly laws, they're pretty weak, as evidenced by Coles and Woolworths control of the retail food market. Imagine Coles and Woolworths (or Saudi Aramco) financing and owning half the charging infrastructure in Australia - because "the Govt can't afford to develop or own it"?

 

You would end up paying nearly as much to recharge your EV, as it would to refill your IC-powered vehicle with petrol. We have to be careful what we wish for, and ensure we retain public control of important things such as energy generation and charging infrastructure.

[octave]

ICing (the act of parking an iC car in a charging spot to prevent an EV charging) is very much a thing.     Here is an extreme case.

 

EV Charging Station ICE’d By Ford Ranger Raptor Is Oh So Childish

 

I simply don't understand why people are so passionately against EVs.      Whilst there can be well-presented arguments highlighting the cons of EVs there seems to be so much hysteria.

 

I once received this video from an anti EV type which was supposed to illustrate that an EV is a bomb on wheels....................however

 

A Tesla burst into flames during a crash test. The organizer admitted it was staged

 

The thing is there are a few cases of EVs burning that are real examples but these people don't want to talk about statistics or even different battery chemistries.  They just want to present a headline or spectacular video. 

 

Dont like EVs don't buy one.   If the conversion to EVs is so flawed and grids will start to collapse then the conversion will cease.   The notion that we will be sitting in the dark because of electrification is too much for it and that no one has foreseen this or done anything about this seems a little hard to believe.

 

The growth of EVs will continue along and the grid will either adapt or we will have slow the rate at which we change or perhaps look for some alternate technology

 

 

[facthunter]

Factories used to have a big steam engine diving long overhead shafts with  flat leather belts driving machinery. Now there's an electric motor in about everything. Storage is all we need and quick response capability.  Nev

[kgwilson]

26 minutes ago, red750 said:

Look what Scotland is doing...

 

Scotland's EV superhub.

The West is so far behind China it is almost laughable. Companies like Shell have been divesting for years in new Electicity supply industries. Shell owns Powershop in Australia who I am now with as my Electricity supplier. Shell has partnered with BYD to build the biggest EV charging hub in the world (well it was when it was opened in September 23) in Shenzhen near the Shanghai airport that has 258 charge points & can charge 3300 EVs a day with rooftop solar producing 300,000 kWh a year.

 

https://www.shell.com/what-we-do/mobility/mobility-news/shell-opens-largest-ev-charging-station.html