Electric car thread

[onetrack]

What kind of EV planning stupidity results in so many EV's having different charging plug requirements? That's enough to put you off EV's, right up front. Imagine pulling into a servo to refuel your petrol car and finding the bowser handpiece won't fit into your fuel filler? This is the kind of stupidity that kills new technology.

[kgwilson]

9 hours ago, facthunter said:

When ICE cars first came out there wasn't enough gas stations either. ICE sales are falling according to the latest figures. Hybrids are leading but I don't think They are the answer..  A Slick sales man can convince people that they are, but it combines the worst aspects of both. Nev

Hybrids are complex and have generally very poor range on the battery which are always small so they can keep the price below a pure battery EV. It is slick marketing by the legacy car makers who are desperate to maintain market share against the new EV companies. Most have less than 100km of range and while some in theory have more, most of the tests and reviews have demonstrated that the range quoted by the manufacturers is a very best case scenario and not able to be attained by an average driver. Also studies have found that plug in hybrids rarely have better fuel consumption than pure ICE vehicles because owners fail to plug them in often enough.

 

The appeal is the price being lower than a pure BEV, the promise of cheaper running costs with the quoted lower fuel consumption, the reduction of emissions due to the lower fuel consumption giving a feel good factor to purchasers and the reduction of range anxiety that many people have that makes them balk at a pure EV purchase.

 

The facts are that Hybrids are the worst of both worlds. They have small batteries very ordinary electric drive systems compared to any BEV and all of the maintenance costs & issues of an ICE vehicle and still spew out toxic emissions. They are also the most likely to catch fire by over 300% than ICE vehicles and many times more than pure EVs.

[kgwilson]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

What kind of EV planning stupidity results in so many EV's having different charging plug requirements? That's enough to put you off EV's, right up front. Imagine pulling into a servo to refuel your petrol car and finding the bowser handpiece won't fit into your fuel filler? This is the kind of stupidity that kills new technology.

Well no they don't. Since 2020 all EVs sold in Australia must comply with the CCS2 (Combined Charging System 2) standard. This was implemented in the EU some years ago and is now the world wide standard used everywhere including China.  The CCS2 plug can be single or 3 phase for AC charging with a dedicated DC charging socket except as you would expect in the US where for some reason (probably linked to Musks donations & political clout) they have standardised on the Tesla proprietary plug even though it can't charge from 3 phase AC power. Japan still uses CHAdeMO as far as I know.

 

The early Hybrids and Japanese EVs used a ChAdeMO (Charge de move) connector and there are still quite a few public chargers in Australia that cater for these vehicles.

 

What has improved dramatically recently is the system of payments. Up till recently you had to have an App and there were often problems getting the app to connect with the charger. There were also RFID cards which worked better but were also a pain. Teslas though when connected to a Tesla charger just charged automatically. I have apps for Chargefox, Evie, BP Pulse, Ampol, & Tesla & RFID cards for Chargefox & Evie.

 

Now when I go to an Evie charger I don't need an App or RFID card. My car is registered with Evie & when I connect to an Evie charger it just starts charging automatically & the cost is charged to my credit card.

 

The thing is like over 85% of EV owners I rarely charge from a rapid DC charger as I plug the car in at home and during the day it charges from my rooftop solar. My electricity plan gives me 2 hours of free power every day from 12 till 2pm so I can still charge free on cloudy or rainy days.

 

I've had the car now for 11 months and have only been on 3 long trips over 400km where I needed to use the public charging network. I put the route into the Satnav & the system tells me where the chargers are on the route & where the best stops are, whether food, toilets etc are available there and as I get close how many chargers are in use or free.

[red750]

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/single-photo-turns-many-aussies-off-buying-an-electric-car/ar-AA1oeXFQ?ocid=winp2fptaskbarhover&cvid=e7860ede5c614202833847d8c7d43e01&ei=68

[onetrack]

The Tesla EV bubble bursts ...

 

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2024/08/the-tesla-ev-bubble-bursts/

 

The Chinese EV onslaught is going to be Tesla's biggest test.

[facthunter]

Elon Musk is the main reason to not buy a Tesla. What a dill he turned out to be. Nev

[kgwilson]

The problem is he is a very rich dill. He is or was a visionary and got the electric car industry to mainstream acceptance and Tesla is (or was) the largest car company on the planet by market capitalisation. Space X has overtaken Boeing/NASA but his foray in to social media was his most visible slide in to the league of wealthy outspoken arseholes, even supporting another one called Trump.

 

I'm glad I didn't buy a Tesla, I'd feel embarrassed. His attitude must be costing them sales. A friend of mine wanted to buy a Tesla but his wife can't stand Musk so he didn't.

[facthunter]

Still seem to be the most common EV on the road in Melbourne. That's across a few models. Nev

[old man emu]

8 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

I'm glad I didn't buy a Tesla

When did you buy your EV? How far into its claimed life is it? Not wanting to attack, but just interested. I was wondering when you might have to replace it after having the good run you expected from it when you bought it.

 

What I find annoying about the EV debate is that it seems the only ones who put out press releases trumpeting the uptake of the various types of electrically-powered vehicles are the lobbying organisations whose members are the mobs flogging these things. https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/ We never seem to hear from the consumers, KGW and Octave excepted. Now, those consumers could be praising or damning these vehicles, but their voices are not heard, mainly because it is Big Business which controls information.

 

It will be interesting to watch the sales figures from next May when the government tax incentives are withdrawn. Also those who already own one, and are getting a good run from it, won't be needing to replace it for a few years. Sale have to slow.

[facthunter]

With current figures of EVs on the road fairly LOW I wouldn't make that prediction myself. Most of the Information on them is NEGATIVE trying to aid the vested interests of highly profitable fossil fuel networks. There's almost NO Maintenance on an EV and charging stations are growing. Nev

[red750]

Why such a large discrepancy? Prices from the maps of the two largest charging station operators.

 

Chargefox, Forest Hill Shopping Centre.

 

Evie, Red Rooster Ringwood

 

Evie, Caroline Springs

 

 

[old man emu]

Aren't the prices charged for that electricity "spot prices" which vary during the day according to other demands for electricity?

[kgwilson]

53 minutes ago, old man emu said:

When did you buy your EV? How far into its claimed life is it? Not wanting to attack, but just interested. I was wondering when you might have to replace it after having the good run you expected from it when you bought it.

 

What I find annoying about the EV debate is that it seems the only ones who put out press releases trumpeting the uptake of the various types of electrically-powered vehicles are the lobbying organisations whose members are the mobs flogging these things. https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/ We never seem to hear from the consumers, KGW and Octave excepted. Now, those consumers could be praising or damning these vehicles, but their voices are not heard, mainly because it is Big Business which controls information.

 

It will be interesting to watch the sales figures from next May when the government tax incentives are withdrawn. Also those who already own one, and are getting a good run from it, won't be needing to replace it for a few years. Sale have to slow.

My MG4 is just on a year old with 15,000km on the clock. It came with an unlimited km warranty of 7 years on car & battery. This has now been lifted to 10 years but with 250,000 km limit. No maintenance due till September 2025 or 40,000km whichever is first. There are no government incentives in NSW. In China & Thailand the battery is warranted for life which generally means when the car is worn out. There is a maximum of 30,000km per year though. I'd say this is to prevent Taxi/Uber drivers who drive professionally some over 100,000km a year from claiming after 1-2 million km.

[kgwilson]

I do 95% of my charging at home for $0.00 from solar and free power from 12:00 to 14:00 every day which accounts for cloudy days. The charging cost relates generally to the charging speed. Superchargers capable of 350kW charging, cost the most (60-75c/kWh. Free chargers are generally at shopping centres & businesses & range from 7 kW single phase AC to 22 kW 3 phase AC. Other slow chargers of up to 50kW DC are pretty cheap usually 25-30c/kWh.

 

There are other chargers called Destination chargers & these are mostly free as well. On my 550km trip I topped up at a 50kW charger while I had lunch at 30c/kWh (about 30 mins) which gave me plenty of range to reach my destination. The hotel had destination chargers which were 7kW AC chargers and were free for guests. I plugged in & the car was 100% full in about 4 hours.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

My MG4 is just on a year old with 15,000km on the clock. ...... 10 years but with 250,000 km limit ..... maintenance due ... September 2025 or 40,000km whichever is first

250000/15000 = 16.66 years.  15000 x 10 = 150,000 kms Seems comparable with an ICE.

 

What does the owner's manual specify for that 40,000 km service? How much have you estimated that will cost? I'm paying about $200 for a 10,000 km service. I'll freely admit that since 2022 I am spending a lot on replacing time-lifed components as my car has over 200 thou on it. My mechanic doesn't charge like a wounded bull for labour so that's a save compared to going to a dealer.

 

I think the question of the cost of tyres is moot. The tyres that I can buy for my car cost me $150 each, but if I had a Toorak Tractor or Double Bay Deere, the cost of each tyre would be much higher. I suppose tyres for the MG4 would be similar in price to the SUV tyres. 

 

I think that where KGW is in a better position than most owners is that he has solar AND can avail himself of the free lunchtime electricity. I think I mentioned that I have a little solar trickle charger to keep my bike' battery charged up. However since I am 'renting' there' no chance of getting panels and a battery installed. 

[octave]

3 hours ago, old man emu said:

We never seem to hear from the consumers, KGW and Octave excepted

I think it depends on where you get your information. Because these days internet algorithms tend to push news and information based on what people have searched for or watched in the past, this tends to reinforce positive or negative views on the subject.  I certainly get plenty of positive stories. 

 

Regional Queenslanders say electric vehicles worth it for fuel savings but challenges remain

 

There are plenty of Youtube channels that present a positive view of EVs such as Fully Charged or The Electric Viking, I could name dozens of others. 

 

Some outlets (I am looking at you Rupert) only publish negative stories.   An example of some pretty shoddy journalism can be seen in a link posted here recently. I am not having a go at the person who posted this as they posted the link without comment.

 

Single photo turns many Aussies off buying an electric car

 

So for those who don't want to read the story, the gist is that a woman was temporarily stranded when the triangular EV badge fell off her number plate and punctured her rear tyre. Because Tesla doesn't come a spare tyre she had to call for road assistance. 

Firstly the headline is hysterical nonsense. I doubt that people all around Australia are looking at this picture and saying "Nope, I won't get an EV"  Moving on from this and putting our rational hats on, this is not a story illustrating the failings of EV technology.  Let's just imagine that the Tesla did not run over the EV badge but the following car ran over it and let's say this car was one of the increasing number of cars that do not come with a spare, would this story have made the paper? I wonder what the headline would have been.   

 

The Daily Mail is one of the worst culprits  Daily Mail admits making up story about electric vehicles causing potholes

 

 

[nomadpete]

I would be surprised if a vehicle badge (any brand) is actually strong enough to penetrate a tyre.

[octave]

3 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

I would be surprised if a vehicle badge (any brand) is actually strong enough to penetrate a tyre.

 I must admit I am also a little sceptical. 

[red750]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

I would be surprised if a vehicle badge (any brand) is actually strong enough to penetrate a tyre.

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/what-are-the-odds-unlucky-tesla-owner-sabotaged-by-ev-badge/

[onetrack]

Musk and Tesla are going to get kicked in the cojones right royally by the Chinese, the Teslas will soon become unsaleable, because you're now able to buy 3 Chinese EV's, for the price of 1 Tesla.

 

The Chinese EV manufacturers are nearly all losing substantial sums of money, and the domestic demand for EV's in China has slumped due to the property market slumping, so they'll be dumping EV's on every country they think there might be a few sales in.

 

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/chinese-ev-brands-could-fall-like-dominos-as-price-wars-cut-profits

[octave]

30 minutes ago, onetrack said:

and the domestic demand for EV's in China has slumped

 

 

Have EV sales in China slumped?

 

China auto market hits milestone as EVs, hybrids make up half of July sales

 

 

[kgwilson]

The blue EV badge on the number plate is aluminium and is an equilateral triangle with 25mm sides. It is held on to the number plate by 2 rivets. How it just fell off is pretty questionable and then how it punctured a tyre even more-so.

 

OME there is a long list of what is checked at 40,000km all listed on the MG website. There is little to replace. Cost is  $296.00 which in my opinion is a ripoff as they basically just have a look at everything. A capped price service regime with an ICE vehicle at $200/10,000km would be $800.00 in the same period.

 

Brake fluid & aircon filter are the only things replaced. Battery coolant, windscreen washer fluid & electric motor coolant are checked & topped up if necessary which takes about a minute as the reservoirs are under the bonnet. I've no idea what new tyres cost.  They are Bridgestone Turanza 235/45 R18 98W and at 15,000km they are not showing any signs of wear.

 

The point at which an EV becomes more economical than an ICE vehicle is at around 33,000km according to analysis carried out in the US. Even accounting for the considerably higher purchase price in the past, the total cost of ownership is a lot cheaper over 10 or more years. This is all rapidly changing with the price of new EVs dropping all the time.

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, kgwilson said:

It is held on to the number plate by 2 rivets. How it just fell off is pretty questionable and then how it punctured a tyre even more-so.

If it was attached to the front number plate, it is possible to fall and go under a tyre, with a probability approaching that of winning Lotto, but it could happen. I don't recall if the report indicated which tyre was damaged. My guess is that it came off in the person's driveway and took some kilometres to do its dirty work.

 

9 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Cost is  $296.00 which in my opinion is a ripoff

The price seems reasonable to me. Remember that at least 75 to 80% of that is labour, and paying for the knowledge of the service person to know what to look for. There are also the overheads for running the business. I pay about $100 less for a 10,000 km service on my car, but my mechanic's overheads are minimal as he owns his premises, which are in a country town.

 

What I think cares people off EVs is the publicity given to the price of the high end EVs. The majority of people don't want those high end vehicles. They just want a set of wheels to take them relatively short distances each day. That's where the Chinese ones meet the need.

[onetrack]

China's US$347B plot to dominate the global EV market ...

 

https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/china-executes-347-billion-plot-to-control-worlds-electric-vehicle-market/news-story/5045915379b18598ea0d94f279b3482f

 

You'd have to be extremely careful if you purchased a Chinese EV, as it is obvious that only a handful of Chinese EV manufacturers will survive the next 5 years.

 

https://restofworld.org/2024/china-ev-industry-slowdown/

 

The Chinese EV sales figures are interesting, in that domestic EV sales slumped in April and May, reportedly due to tougher economic conditions and the Chinese Govt ending buyer subsidies - but the EV numbers came back in June and July, when the EV manufacturers started heavy discounting.

 

The Europeans and Americans are whinging about the unfair practice of EV manufacturer subsidising by the Chinese Govt - but they can't point the finger, IC-engined car manufacturers in both Europe and the USA (and Australia!) have been on the receiving end of vast amounts of subsidies over many decades.

 

The U.S. Govt even baled out Chrysler and GM from bankrupcty, on a huge scale, actually owning both at different periods in time.

Australia probably gave GM billions over several decades, in direct grants, subsidies and tax breaks. GM got $275M from the Govt in 2012 just to keep Holden going - and that was only for 5 more years.

 

Edited August 10 by onetrack

[facthunter]

The  extra money was to help Fund new plant for new models. There's something very fishy about the way A bot and Hockey called and hastened  GM's departure from Australia. HSV was a pretty slick organisation in Australia.   Nev