Electric car thread

[spacesailor]

The Initial cost ( even when subsidised) is too expensive compared to a ICE  car at the moment .

Tesla 3 cheapest $ 61.900 . Long range ' 3 ' with duel-motor $ 71.900 .

So keeping my Old Heavy 4X4 tank :$ 60 or 70,000 will buy heaps of fuel .

unless I get a. Bargain ! Hint hint .

spacesailor

[Litespeed]

Here is the antidote to heavy, overly tech ev cars.

 

Wouldn't we love a little sports car that's actually fun, tactile to drive and won't cost the earth?

 

Ev does not have to be heavy, ugly or big flat screen tech.

 

What if a modern MG midget existed but roomier, great handling and high quality?

 

Your prayers are answered.

 

680kg

300km range 

Craftsmen made 

No electronic crap to distract from driving joy 

 

 

 

 

Proof it can be done, highly developed by a tiny company, all hand built by only 8 people and $40k odd euro for a jewel like masterpiece.

 

If these guys can do it the bigger boys have no excuse.

 

Proof small ev's can be fun. And just as light as minimal lotus7 like cars.

 

Brilliant.

 

You don't need a zillion horsepower and large resources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marty_d]

3 minutes ago, Litespeed said:

Here is the antidote to heavy, overly tech ev cars.

 

Wouldn't we love a little sports car that's actually fun, tactile to drive and won't cost the earth?

 

Ev does not have to be heavy, ugly or big flat screen tech.

 

What if a modern MG midget existed but roomier, great handling and high quality?

 

Your prayers are answered.

 

680kg

300km range 

Craftsmen made 

No electronic crap to distract from driving joy 

 

 

 

 

Proof it can be done, highly developed by a tiny company, all hand built by only 8 people and $40k odd euro for a jewel like masterpiece.

 

If these guys can do it the bigger boys have no excuse.

 

Proof small ev's can be fun. And just as light as minimal lotus7 like cars.

 

Brilliant.

 

You don't need a zillion horsepower and large resources.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why does "Silence of the lambs" come into my mind when I look at the picture?

[Litespeed]

The architecture of the chassis also means other bodies could easily used.

A modern kit car? 

 

Why not.

[Litespeed]

3 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Why does "Silence of the lambs" come into my mind when I look at the picture?

They will provide a custom leather face mask aka Hannibal if asked, they are Dutch Afterall.

[Marty_d]

I'd be all for that.  Imagine an electric AC Cobra or 59 Corvette. 

[Litespeed]

17 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

I'd be all for that.  Imagine an electric AC Cobra or 59 Corvette. 

Imagination is the real limitation.

 

But I admit to hating the idea of a ev Alfa Romeo, it won't come with a opera under the bonnet. Alfas have a full orchestral symphony under the hood, not a synthetic disco tune. They are also extremely dangerous to licence points.

[onetrack]

Here's an interesting comparison in Pickles local Salvage yard. Two cars - One, a 2022 Tesla 3 sedan - the Second, a regular IC-powered 2015, 6 cyl Porsche Macan hatchback.

 

Both have taken solid whacks to the side. On the Tesla, the RHS. On the Porsche, the LHS.

At a glance, without careful close-up examination, the damage appears to be of a similar level - serious body damage.

 

However - the Tesla is a Statutory write-off - and the Porsche is classed as a Repairable write-off.

This is not a good sign for Tesla repairability. One good whack, and they're scrap. Tesla repairability appears to be very low.

 

What is worse - the Porsche is 8 yrs old - the Tesla is only 1 yr old.

 

https://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-salvage/item/-/details/CP--01-2015-Porsche-Macan-Wagon/569964

 

https://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-salvage/item/-/details/CP--04-2022-TESLA-Model-3-Sedan/568925

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

A small whack on a Lotus Elise will be written off as it is too expensive to repair (a friend of mine had one and that is what happened).

 

It owudl be interesting to see the repairability of other makes/models of EVs.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 14/12/2023 at 5:03 AM, old man emu said:

Hey Jerry!!! Can you do the maths for the depreciation of a vehicle at accepted Tax Office rates?

Oh, vehicles and tax.. one almost needs a PhD!

 

Over here, unless you're a director of the company or you really use your car for business (e.g. a sales guy trapsing up and down the country), trying to engineer something tac-efficient out of cars is futile. When I was an employee of another bank, I could have salary sacrifice for the car, but, with the equivalent of FBT, it was not economic. When I ran my own company, as my car/motorbike was really only used for commuting, I claimed a mileage allowance... 40p/mile for first x,000 miles (10,000, I think) and 26p/mile thereafter (for motorbikes, it was a flat 26p/mile). There was no tax on that payment and one did make a small profit, considering all expenses.

 

Funnily enough, I have only had shares of aircraft with syndicates that charge per hour wet, and that per hour rate was fully tax dedcutible.. so I did sometimes fly home to the South West and back (planes were both based on the outskirts of London); and claimed them fully. The monthly membership was not deductible.

 

If you want to buy and depreciate (may as well lease), in Aus, it was, thanks to Paul Keating, a extended from a 3 year to 5 year straight-lkine depreciation. In the UK, it is still 3 - Paul Keating made it 5 on the basis that people (not businesses) averaged five years of ownership before turning their cars over.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[octave]

 

 

Tesla crash repairs still far above ICE vehicles, but other EVs near parity: study

 

 

 

[old man emu]

Let's face it. The whole concept of replacing all ICEs with EVs is being pushed by people with limited experience of the multitude of functions of motor vehicles. I would suggest that the one's throwing the greatest weight at that concept are upper middle class types in managerial positions. This sort of person's workspace is usually a fixed location office, located within a less than 50 km radius of the person's home. For them, travelling distance is not a big factor in their lives. What is resisting their push is the tyranny of distance and, especially very poor supporting infrastructure outside the major urban areas.

 

Having said that, don't think that I am totally against EVs. These are some of the positives I see:

1. Reduced urban air pollution. I doubt if that point can be denied.
2. Reduced use of petroleum products as an energy source. The petroleum products saved could be redirected into objects, from which the petroleum product could be recovered at end-of-life.
3. Equality with existing vehicles as a means of transporting people and goods within an urban area. Can you distinguish an EV from an ICE from a distance? Do EVs carry fewer passengers than ICEs? Does a light EV truck (under 4 tonnes GVM) carry any less goods than a similar ICE? I'd say the answers to these questions is "No".
4. Elimination of 40,000 litre containers of flammable liquid from urban roads. Not so many petrol tankers required.
5. Ability to recharge an EV at times when it is not needed for transport. That means charging overnight, or during operator's rest periods. (Whenever does an urban delivery truck driver get a decent rest break during working hours?)

These are some of the negatives I see:

1. Difficulties for long distance travel due to inadequate recharging facilities and the distances between centres that could provide them.
2. Fuel companies have invested billions in establishing petroleum refuelling sites across the country. If the petroleum companies have no market for motor fuel, who will buy into the "service" of supplying power?
3. Inability to provide power to "remote" users. Think of the farmer whose house and sheds are a couple of hundred metres from the power lines, but who is trying to put in a crop in a 200 hectare paddock whose furthest boundary is a kilometer from the house. How can that be done without using a petroleum-fuelled vehicle that uses its fuel capacity several times per day? It might take 10 minutes to fill the tanks with liquid fuel, but hours to recharge a battery of sufficient capacity. And during harvest, there's not just one power unit working in the paddock at the same time. The smallest unit is a header and tractor pulling a field bin. Not to mention to need to power grain storage equipment.
4. Inability of public recharging facilities to simultaneously charge several vehicles at the same time, as compared to refuelling liquid-fuelled vehicles.

Regarding point 4, see the explanation of that point from time 0:50 in this video:

 

 

My conclusion:

1. Eventually EVs will become an integral part of the transport system within urban areas. ICEs will continue to be a dominant part of the use of vehicles in non-urban areas.
2. The uptake of EVs in urban areas is dependent on reducing the recharging time at public recharging locations. That would require dedicated electricity supply to charging stations that is independent of the supply system for domestic and commercial use.
3. The acceptance of small, low powered EVs for personal transport is being damaged by the continued phallus-worship of unnecessarily large and/or overpowered vehicles designed more for ego enhancement than practicality. 

 

 

[kgwilson]

Teslas have a completely different model from purchasing and maintenance than other companies. There are no Tesla dealers. You purchase direct from Tesla and select all your options etc. Tesla then get your car manufactured at the factory nearest where you live. For Australia that means it is built in China.

 

Teslas do not have a maintenance regime. You only take it to a Tesla approved maintenance facility if you have a problem. If that is within the warranty period they fix it for free. All software updates are done over the air so owners may never have to go to a Tesla approved maintenance facility.

 

For my MG4 there is a national network of MG dealers and service centres. My car went back for a free check 1 month after delivery & the next service is in 2 years or 40,000 km whichever comes first with a capped price of about $250.00. Software updates are done by the MG service centre.

 

As mentioned the main reason a Tesla will be written off in a side impact or possibly any major impact is a complete lack of service knowledge and battery repair competence in Australia and either the repair quote will have to include the "I have no idea what to do" cost factor or "I can't do this as I have no knowledge so refuse to quote" factor built in.

Edited December 15, 2023 by kgwilson

[kgwilson]

13 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Let's face it. The whole concept of replacing all ICEs with EVs is being pushed by people with limited experience of the multitude of functions of motor vehicles. I would suggest that the one's throwing the greatest weight at that concept are upper middle class types in managerial positions. This sort of person's workspace is usually a fixed location office, located within a less than 50 km radius of the person's home. For them, travelling distance is not a big factor in their lives. What is resisting their push is the tyranny of distance and, especially very poor supporting infrastructure outside the major urban areas.

 

Having said that, don't think that I am totally against EVs. These are some of the positives I see:

1. Reduced urban air pollution. I doubt if that point can be denied.
2. Reduced use of petroleum products as an energy source. The petroleum products saved could be redirected into objects, from which the petroleum product could be recovered at end-of-life.
3. Equality with existing vehicles as a means of transporting people and goods within an urban area. Can you distinguish an EV from an ICE from a distance? Do EVs carry fewer passengers than ICEs? Does a light EV truck (under 4 tonnes GVM) carry any less goods than a similar ICE? I'd say the answers to these questions is "No".
4. Elimination of 40,000 litre containers of flammable liquid from urban roads. Not so many petrol tankers required.
5. Ability to recharge an EV at times when it is not needed for transport. That means charging overnight, or during operator's rest periods. (Whenever does an urban delivery truck driver get a decent rest break during working hours?)

These are some of the negatives I see:

1. Difficulties for long distance travel due to inadequate recharging facilities and the distances between centres that could provide them.
2. Fuel companies have invested billions in establishing petroleum refuelling sites across the country. If the petroleum companies have no market for motor fuel, who will buy into the "service" of supplying power?
3. Inability to provide power to "remote" users. Think of the farmer whose house and sheds are a couple of hundred metres from the power lines, but who is trying to put in a crop in a 200 hectare paddock whose furthest boundary is a kilometer from the house. How can that be done without using a petroleum-fuelled vehicle that uses its fuel capacity several times per day? It might take 10 minutes to fill the tanks with liquid fuel, but hours to recharge a battery of sufficient capacity. And during harvest, there's not just one power unit working in the paddock at the same time. The smallest unit is a header and tractor pulling a field bin. Not to mention to need to power grain storage equipment.
4. Inability of public recharging facilities to simultaneously charge several vehicles at the same time, as compared to refuelling liquid-fuelled vehicles.

Regarding point 4, see the explanation of that point from time 0:50 in this video:

 

 

My conclusion:

1. Eventually EVs will become an integral part of the transport system within urban areas. ICEs will continue to be a dominant part of the use of vehicles in non-urban areas.
2. The uptake of EVs in urban areas is dependent on reducing the recharging time at public recharging locations. That would require dedicated electricity supply to charging stations that is independent of the supply system for domestic and commercial use.
3. The acceptance of small, low powered EVs for personal transport is being damaged by the continued phallus-worship of unnecessarily large and/or overpowered vehicles designed more for ego enhancement than practicality. 

 

 

Charging infrastructure in Australia is crap at present but this is the legacy left by Morrison & his "Lump of Coal" cronies & your EV won't tow your boat rubbish. It is beginning to improve but the content of that video fails to look at existing situations already developed and installed in other countries.

 

The underground tank gets replaced with large battery storage so that the 1 MW is continually topping the battery up so when there are lots of vehicles charging they are able to get a full charge. Also there are only 6 EVs in Australia that can charge at 350kW. One is the Ioniq 5/6 that can charge from 20- 80% in 18 minutes & a 5 minute charge will give 100km of extra range.

 

A Darwin company is underway in producing off grid modular EV charging stations for use in the outback. They will be transported to anywhere on the back of a truck and a small solar farm to charge the battery set up on the unlimited land around them. There will be 4 chargers at each location. No need for any service station infrastructure or expensive delivery of fuel by tankers. Horizon Energy already has some small ones with 2 x 50kw chargers fed from the battery charged from the solar panels mounted on the roof of the charging station. These have a diesel backup which kind of defeats the purpose somewhat but it is a good start.

 

Point 1. ICE will continue to dominate non urban areas in the short term only. Eventually ICE vehicles will no longer be produced, rural properties will have their own small solar farms with battery storage. Electrically powered tractors and other farm equipment is already being produced and will get better as time goes by. Mines are already converting their massive dump trucks from diesel to electric. Fossil fuels will run out, at current known reserves this is in 45 years. After 28 COPs the only decision is to now transition away from fossil fuels. The goal was to reduce the average temperature increase to 1.5 deg by 2030. That is a huge fail so far. This year the average increase is 1.49 deg & there are another 7 years to go with only 0.01% to play with..

 

Point 2. Nearly 90% of EV owners charge at home overnight when demand is low so while the public charger infrastructure needs upgrading and quickly, this is not a restriction for urban EV uptake at all. Most new EVs have 300 to 600km of range so only need a charge at night once or twice a week when average daily commute is around 40km. Most electricity retailers have EV plans. One in Victoria has an 8.5c/kWH night time rate. Also in traffic jams in cities EVs outshine ICE by miles. The only power consumed when in a traffic jam is the A/C & other peripherals which use very little. ICE cars are using fuel all the time & polluting the atmosphere & those with stop start systems are not much better. Those I know of with these systems turn them off as they need the engine to keep the A/C compressor going.

 

Point 3. Absolutely correct. These giant American style Utes & wagons are obscene. They use enormous amounts of fuel and don't fit in car parks & have no larger carrying capacity than most others. They do have greater towing capacity but therein lies another problem. They should be taxed out of existence.

 

All of this assumes that we don't reach the tipping point first and catastrophic failures and conflict don't destroy everything.

[octave]

5 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Fuel companies have invested billions in establishing petroleum refuelling sites across the country. If the petroleum companies have no market for motor fuel, who will buy into the "service" of supplying power?

 

Traditional fuel companies are moving into the EV charging business.  Oil companies and utilities are buying up all the electric car charging startups

 

8 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Let's face it. The whole concept of replacing all ICEs with EVs is being pushed by people with limited experience of the multitude of functions of motor vehicles.

 

The idea that there is a rabid campaign to make people change to EVs in the short term is not really true.   I know many countries have set aspirational targets for around 2035.   In my view, this is probably not necessary due to the natural uptake of EVs.  It will be a long long time before there are no IC vehicles on the roads.  

 

14 minutes ago, old man emu said:

The uptake of EVs in urban areas is dependent on reducing the recharging time at public recharging locations. That would require dedicated electricity supply to charging stations that is independent of the supply system for domestic and commercial use.

 

These batteries can store electricity when it is cheap and also be in the business of selling power back to the grid.

A charging plaza with 258 fast-charging stalls is now a reality, but when will we see these here?   Presumably, you don't install 258 fast chargers at a facility if only a few can be used at once.  

 

Many other countries are way ahead of us for various reasons.  Norway is an interesting example.   It is important to note that Norway still exports a lot of oil and is therefore not blameless. I do think however Norway is somewhat of an earlier adopter which in the long run benefits us all.  Whilst Norway does not have the vast distances we have in Australia it still shows that some of the criticisms are not justified.

 

What's the EV Charging Infrastructure in Norway Really Like?

 

The world’s most electric city | Future of Cities

 

There are many reasons why EVs are unsuitable for many people at the moment. This will probably not be the case in 10 years.

 

The thing that bugs me is that although there are pros and cons to all new technologies, the anti EV folks are happy to go to quite extreme lengths to attempt to stop or slow down change.   Most of this anti-stuff comes from financial self-interest and anxiety over change.  

 

The future, even in the shorter term can be hard to imagine.  Some years ago when I bought my first PC and modem I used to connect to so-called bulletin boards (with my 28k modem).  I think the suggestion that in a few years, most of the world will be connected by a worldwide network and we will carry around in our pockets the means to instantly communicate with someone on the other side of the world would have been hard to imagine.   

 

[facthunter]

I like most of that but taxing out of existence? Some of those utes can't be parked in the usual places at all (Dodge RAM). IF they go electric what does it matter, except if you get hit by one in something light you'll be history. Get all IDIOTS off the road. There's plenty of cameras. Road trains are a bit of a menace if they get out of shape.  Nev

[nomadpete]

Don't  forget the worldwide economic elephant in the room.

 

The wide adoption of EV's will release Australia  from the grip of worldwide oil syndicates, if we make all our own transport energy.

 

Further, when every country does this, OPEC will be in trouble. Yeah, I know the Arabs are diversifying their income but nothing will ever match the present profits that come direct from the ground.

Edited December 16, 2023 by nomadpete
Proof.

[old man emu]

Regarding the cost of collision damage repair. 

 

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

the main reason a Tesla will be written off in a side impact or possibly any major impact

Leaving the battery out of the collision repair estimate, I would say that ALL modern vehicles, irrespective of power source, are as equally liable to being written off due to its being uneconomical to repair the body itself. Sure, you can fix a dinged door, and boot lid, but once the front of the vehicle has done its job of impact absorption, it can't be replaced. The rigid chassis of days-gone-by has gone back there. I would be reluctant to accept a vehicle whose body has been pulled back into shape by some hydraulic monster. 

 

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Teslas do not have a maintenance regime.

I assume that applies to the battery/motor combination. They still need maintenance in the form of brake pad and tyre replacement;  wheel alignment, even replacing windscreen wiper blades. The proportion of the population that does not possess the awareness of the need to attend to these matters is growing. The "Petrol Head" is becoming rarer as the younger generation directs its interests to more esoteric pursuits. Even lawn mowers have gone electric, so these youngster never even learn how the clean a spark plug.

 

You must remember the First Commandment of the American Way of Life: 'Nobody makes any money until something is sold". A high priced motor vehicle that has power source with a designed useful life of up to 10 years, or has a designed useful mechanical life of 100,000 miles (160,000 km) is the ultimate consumer disposable, generating wealth for those who don't experience grease and sweat.

 

I suppose we must agree that we are in the middle of a rapid, massive redirection in the area of road transport. Many of us are seeing this and lamenting another old skill being tossed onto the discarded arts heap. Many of us see the logic in stopping the rampant use of a diminishing resource, but the same "many" are getting "change fatigue" that they have been subjected to for close on 75 years. 

 

Let the upcoming generations work at making the use of liquid fuels a page in the history of Mankind. Just don't pressure older generations to turn the page so quickly. Some of us like to bask in the warmth of the wordsmith.

[facthunter]

It's been a vast Profit maker but not without it's consequences. IF it's good stuff it's too good to JUST Burn. Nature had a good way of sequestering Coal Gas and Petroleum. It took billions of years. We've released a lot of it in the LAST 250 years.  Nev

[onetrack]

Todays vehicles are built from alloys and very thin high tensile steel. Neither of these products lend themselves to easy repair. If high tensile steel sheet gets torn, it's too thin to weld up and the heat treatment is destroyed, so replacement of the part or panel is the only real option.

 

There's a Bulletin produced by Austroads, it's called "Damage Assessment Criteria for the Classification of Light Vehicle Statutory Write-Offs". There's one for Heavy Vehicles as well. These guidelines are clear and unambiguous, as to whether a vehicle is repairable or is to be written off.

 

Any structural member that is damaged means a SWO, and even something as simple as a tear in the metal of the firewall means the vehicle is a SWO.

The same goes for water ingress - water ingress more than 150mm deep on the floor mean the vehicle is a write-off, as many electonic components associated with safety features are located under seats and in lower areas of the footwells, and once these have been under water, they can't be trusted to operate correctly in a safety-related event, such as airbag deployment,

 

https://austroads.com.au/latest-news/technical-guides-for-written-off-vehicles-updated

 

[facthunter]

When some of these vehicles get into water you can't open the doors to get out of them. it takes what looks like trifling damage to write them off with that thin High tensile sheet steel they're made of today. ALLOY parts are not allowed to be weld repaired either. the structural part of a Tesla is alloy. This doesn't mean they are no good. It just means a lot of things we used to do are no longer common practice. Most modern cars are a thing of wonder really. Brakes  steering handling comfort economy quietness and power, crash resistant and very little maintenance compared to the old stuff which was greased and oil changed every 1000 miles. and was worn out at about 160,000 kms at most..  Nev

[spacesailor]

Remember 

Maitland's " STEAM FESTIVAL " , 

WHAT WILL , THEY DO ! .

without coal and oil to fire their boilers.

Will they go " electric " . Or just send everything to the ' scrapyard ' .

Howard rotory hoe ! .

Lots of people get pleasure from ' displaying ' their refurbished Old ' Hoe's ' to the public. 

Now they will only be " Static displays '' .

But will have " electric " sound recording of what they ' USED ' to sound like .

spacesailor

[octave]

I doubt that petrol and diesel cars will disappear completely.   In perhaps 20 years I would imagine that IC cars will be an enthusiast's hobby.  When the car became popular horses didn't disappear.   Although diesel and electric trains now dominate train travel you can still travel on a steam train for recreational reasons.

 

I dont think most of us on this forum will have to purchase an EV in our lifetime if we don't want to. The phase-out timetable for Australia is 2035 and this means a ban on the sale of NEW petrol or diesel cars.  You could buy a new petrol car in the mid-30s and perhaps run it for 10 years or so although it may be the expensive option. 

[red750]

12 minutes ago, octave said:

The phase-out timetable for Australia is 2035

By then I'll be 90 if I'm still around. Doubt I'll be driving anything by then. Barring accidents, my Festiva will probably see me out.

[spacesailor]

I'll only be 93 years young . LoL

spacesailor