SHOCK SAFETY RATING FOR NEW CARS

[Bruce Tuncks]

I'm going to a coronial court ( In Horsham or Ballarat) about these friends who were killed by a retard driving a truck near Murtoa about a year ago.

Any tips would be welcome. I want to know just how he was given a license, and I would like the coroner to find that he got given his too easily.

[facthunter]

 Bruce they need to see what happens when fast vehicles stop quickly. Go with the Paramedics, but that would traumatise their tiny little brains so won't happen.  Coroners sometimes make some weird declarations. Nev

Edited December 21, 2023 by facthunter

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Any tips would be welcome.

Turn up neatly attired. A suit is not necessary, but don't look like you've just came in from mowing the front lawn.

 

Don't be put off by the formalities. Just let the Court official know if you will make an oath or an affirmation.

 

If you are giving evidence, answer using the language you would use if you were talking to someone you know. Don't try to be anything other than you are. The better you depict yourself as you really are, the more a Court is likely to accept what you say as being what really happened.

 

My pet hate is people who say "gentleman" to describe an adult male, usually in the context that the male is a wrongdoer. In any other circumstance outside a courtroom, an adult male is a man, bloke, fellow, chap. "Gentleman" involves a certain superior standard of conduct, due, to self-respect and intellectual refinement which manifest themselves in unrestrained yet delicate manners.  In some cases, its meaning becomes twisted through misguided efforts to avoid offending anyone. 

 

Don't give an opinion unless the ability to form that opinion is within your experience or training. If you are not a specialist in some field, your opinion will be based on life experience.

 

Don't blurt out the first thing that comes into your head. Listen to the question, IF YOU UNDERSTAND IT, think before you answer. If not, ask for a clarification. The Court will understand that you are trying to give it as much help as you can.

 

3 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I want to know just how he was given a license, and I would like the coroner to find that he got given his too easily.

Sorry, but that is not a matter a Coronial Inquest will examine. The Court will take the view that at some time this person was examined by a government official for competency to operate a motor vehicle and apply the road rules. The How and Who of the issue of his licence is irrelevant to the Inquest.

 

Your concerns about the deaths of your friends will be answered if the Coroner makes a finding that the deaths were the culpable actions of another person or persons. After that, the Crown will decide if there is a case to answer for a crime. 

 

 

[onetrack]

Hasn't the truck driver in question already been charged with culpable driving? I'm puzzled as to why the coroner is holding an inquest.

[facthunter]

Not an expert but having deaths might require it.. Nev

[Litespeed]

10 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I would like to see much better testing of license applicants... This could be done with driving simulators, which is the only safe way that a kid suddenly appears in front of you, and the only way skidding on a wet road can be simulated safely. All candidates could get a score out of 100 say, and this would be objective.

The only downside I can think of would be that a different car to your normal one would be used in the simulator.

Kids would do well in the scores but would still drive stupidly on the real road, but oldies who reacted too slowly to be safe would be caught out.

This is exactly why it must be real world training on a track and skidpan. No amount of simulation relates to the actual seat of the pants feeling of the real deal. A life time if safety can be taught in a two day course, not just skills but aptitude and attitude of driving.

 

Anyone can blitz a PlayStation car game, but there is no risk and no reality if risk.

[old man emu]

Do you know what training on a skid pan is meant to do?

[nomadpete]

OME it isn't  about skid pans.

Advanced Driver Training is all about the creation of real accident avoidance in a real vehicle. And especially it's about accident  anticipation.

Actually experiencing the effects of Speed vs inertia vs stopping distance and grip cannot be simulated by computer simulators or classrooms  alone.

 

I'm sure you know  this from your own training, which the average motorist never gets.

[old man emu]

The term "Advanced Driver Training" is used in much the same way as titles for things are relabeled to give them more status. It would be more correct to title Advanced Driving as Preventative Procedures. If I might be allowed to make a comparison with pilot training, what is the purpose of those few sessions "under the hood" that is part of the training for the lowest class of licence? It's not to teach you how to operate in IFR conditions. It's to scare the shit out of you so that you'll be prepared to cut and run when you see crap weather ahead.

 

Once again, my brevity in posing a question, or in constructing it has lead to misinterpretation of the answer I was seeking. Perhaps this revision might point people in the direction of my desired answer.

What is the purpose of the skid pan in driver training?

[facthunter]

Does a session  or two on a skidpan make you go skidding around every turn? Perhaps not but I reckon it makes you able to go faster around corners in the wet and if you spin out you are able to handle it better.. It still depends on making a judgement of your skills and the conditions prevailing and maintaining  the margin of safety you should.  Nev

[onetrack]

The purpose of the skid pan in driver training is to teach the correct response to oversteer or understeer, and to smarten up reaction times to sudden, unexpected vehicle events. So many people go out of control with vehicles after an unexpected event, because their speed of reaction is not up to snuff. Too many people with poor driving skills over-react with the steering input and make things worse.

 

I taught myself how to handle a vehicle by cornering at excessive speeds on rural gravel roads, that were usually loose and corrugated and more often than not, deeply rutted. I soon learnt how to keep a vehicle under control when it was going one way, and I wanted it to go the other way.

 

One thing that needs to be taught is the difference in response needed with increasing speed. I owned a 5 litre V8 Holden in my early 20's and I used to enjoy travelling at high speeds - such as regularly doing 160kmh on gravel roads.

What I found from that, was that a bend that was a gentle curve at 110kmh, rapidly became a very sharp curve at 160kmh!

 

I'm not bragging, but I've never rolled a vehicle, never injured anyone, nor ever pranged any vehicle badly (I did run through a T-junction in heavy fog when I was 18! - another sharp learning curve about travelling faster than you can see ahead!) - but I've endured some hairy driving situations at times, including coming face-to-face with a Landcruiser traytop pulling a big trailer at 120kmh, on my side of the road, on the crest of a sharp little hill, as he was overtaking a slightly slower bus!!

 

The only thing I could do was brake hard in a straight line to wash off speed, and try to figure out which way to go, to avoid a head-on with the Landcruiser.

Fortunately, I saw the 'Cruiser driver making a move to head to my left, I steered as close to the bus as I dared, and the 'Cruiser zipped past me on the LH shoulder, still doing 120kmh.

I was so angry, I stopped and chased him for 10 kms, but he wasn't stopping for anyone, and my anger had subsided by then.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by onetrack

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

The purpose of the skid pan in driver training is to teach the correct response to oversteer or understeer, and to smarten up reaction times to sudden, unexpected vehicle events

Sorry, but you are wrong. The initial purpose of skid pan training is to become aware of how a slippery surface ruins your previous knowledge of how a vehicle steers and brakes. The idea is to drill into thick skulls that wet/icy/oily /gravel roads don't play fair. Once that lesson has been learned, the student is taught to recognise understeer (it's impossible to oversteer on a skidpan) and to adjust speed to suit the conditions. At that stage, the means of regaining control are taught, all the while emphasising that a good driver will know what to do, but know better than getting into a situation that require their application.

 

The way the student is passed on the skid pan is by completing a number of circuits of a course, mainly involving several turns, and maybe stopping at a point, in a set time without the loss of control.

[spacesailor]

My old 4X4 " Jackaroo " was taken to the " Eastern Creek " skidpan , to show off , it's ' dancing moves ' .

It did look fantastic on the internet. 

Much better than my attempts on ' sand ' . Were the. ' dancing ' car driver was taught to drive .

spacesailor

[nomadpete]

11 hours ago, old man emu said:

Advanced Driving as Preventative

The training I did is actually called "Defensive Driving.

 

Regardless of your criticism, I still maintain this level of training should be the minimum required (and assessed) prior to issuing a driver's licence.

[nomadpete]

The skid pan taught me;

 

1. How there is just a couple of kph and total loss of control.

 

2. The know the feel of the borderline.

 

3. Some techniques which MIGHT regain control and how to implement same.

 

4. To read the road surface constantly (which as a motorcyclist, I already knew)

 

5. Based on the above, we then practiced emergency braking, with wet and dry surface, at different speeds up to 80 kph. Then combined emergency braking and sudden lane change combined, at normal road speed, on wet, then dry surfaces.

 

There was a lot more than the above. Had I had it when I was 17, all this practical training on basic motor vehicle control and behaviour would have allowed me to avoid my first four MVA's, in my first couple of year's driving.

[facthunter]

Do some Rally driving and you'll learn  fast and drive in snow and black ice. Actually black ice IS impossible. The  car will slide on it till it hits something that stops it even if no one's in it. Frosty wooden bridges are fun on a motorbike too.  You can't beat experience . A lot of the best drivers started on Go Karts. Nev

[old man emu]

The reason for training on a skid pan and not elsewhere is that a skid pan is built to be clear of rigid structures, and with a surrounding width of dry, high Coefficient of Friction surface that lets a vehicle stop if it comes off the skid pan.

 

The idea is to carry out manoeuvres in a safe environment where loss of control will not result in damage or injury. 

50 minutes ago, facthunter said:

A lot of the best drivers started on Go Karts.

The only benefit to handling that a Go Kart has over other types of four-wheeled vehicles is the extremely low Centre of Gravity, and relatively wide wheel track which make overturning virtually impossible. Their cornering ability is based on the fact that their tyre compounds are such that they produce a high Coefficient of Friction, approaching unity. The average C of F produced by a passenger vehicle tyre on an asphaltic concrete (hot mix) road surface in an urban area is about 0.75.

 

What is "Coefficient of Friction"? In the vernacular, C of F is "grip". It is the ratio between the static weight of an object (which is a Force due to gravity = mg) and the force required to move the object horizontally. Being a ratio, the values of C of F range from zero to unity (0 > 1). 

[facthunter]

The ONLY benefit?? NO suspension is another and quick steering and relatively low cost and plenty of competition. Most have an engine on each rear wheel and make faster times than other vehicles at hill climbs which have lots of sharp turns. The shortness of the vehicle also helps and power to weight. Nev

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

NO suspension

They run on surfaces that are free from ruts and potholes. Hardly much need to damp the vertical impact of the wheel assembly if there is not much chance of the wheel assembly leaving the ground.

 

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

quick steering

A lot of which is due to the high C of F resulting from specialist tyre compounds.

 

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

power to weight.

The more grunt, the less grams, the more go.

[spacesailor]

OME

That. " ice covered " surface! ,

White or ' Blace ice ' .

The only time, I " jack-knifed " a trailer was on " Black ice " .

Tried valiantly to keep the cars nose in front of the trailer. 

But as I was going uphill , I had to slow down for the next corner.

THEN, it ' kicked me ' in the arse-end . 

Luckily nothing coming the other way .

I survived with only a little welding. On the trailer .

spacesailor

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by spacesailor
Spelling

[spenaroo]

On 21/12/2023 at 11:57 PM, Litespeed said:

This is exactly why it must be real world training on a track and skidpan. No amount of simulation relates to the actual seat of the pants feeling of the real deal. A life time if safety can be taught in a two day course, not just skills but aptitude and attitude of driving.

 

Anyone can blitz a PlayStation car game, but there is no risk and no reality if risk.

trust me not everyone can blitz a PlayStation game,
I run a simulator setup at home. often defeat friends by significant amounts of time. plenty struggle with diving at speed and brake points

[octave]

I can't help posting a picture of my son aged 8 maybe. We used to take him to a gokart track regularly. The owner took a shine to my son.  He used to get out a blackboard and teach him about the best line to take.  

[onetrack]

I came a gutser in my Landcruiser on the track to Cooktown in the Daintree forest. It was just graded brown clay. It started to rain as I drove up this fairly steep portion of the track - but despite being in 4WD, I lost traction completely, came to a halt, applied the brakes and locked the wheels - and promptly skated about 100 metres backwards down the track, without a shred of control! - despite releasing the brakes.

 

Luckily the sides of the track were built up and I simple slid into the ditch and the back bumper hit the mound at the side of the track, and I stopped.

I gave up about then, and turned around and went back, the country was too steep ahead, and it was still showery, and I wasn't going to risk tumbling down a hillside in a near-new 'Cruiser wagon.

[Litespeed]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

trust me not everyone can blitz a PlayStation game,
I run a simulator setup at home. often defeat friends by significant amounts of time. plenty struggle with diving at speed and brake points

Yes, it's a skill but it's relevance to driver skill development is limited. Nothing beats real world conditions and seat pucker feel.

 

Simulators are good but no comparison to actual driving.

[pmccarthy]

We skidded around on clay pans when I was young. It was an excellent way to learn how to manage skids and spin outs.