How do we get more people to use Public Transport in urban/suburban areas?

[Jerry_Atrick]

I left Aus in 1996 at the age of 30 (just - actually closer to 31). Up until that point, my adult life involved almost exlcusive use of the car for transport. Going to work in the Melbourne CBD - car; going to the footy - car; going to the beach - car.. going out - car. Even going interstate - car (as ex fiance was scared of flying). Of course, I used a plane as well, but that was a luxury to be honest.

 

When I moved to London, it was the exact opposite. In fact, I didn't get a car for a long time; tube, train and buses were more than adequate, and the tube, at the time, was fast, efficient, and clean. In all forms, the availability was regular and it was not too expensive. Even though UK public transport is ridiculed as the worst in Western Europe, it was a huge step up from what I knew in Australia (well, Mlebourne and the regions). I only really took public transport in Melbourne when the car was in for a service or other maintenance, or, hopped on the tram if I had to go to one of our other offices in the CBD. When I had to take PT in lieu of the car, it was crowded, running late, not frequent enough (I always seem to live near the less serviced lines), and too many stops in between. Once, when I was working in the La Trobe valley, I took an inter-city commuter and was stuck next to a flatulent old lady.. Ughhh!

 

When we came to live in Aus (Melborune) in 2003, it was different.. the trains were a bit better, the trams seemed more frequent and air conditioned, but buses were still a little random to say the least. Although I still drove in when I didn't cycle, as I was relatively close to the city and early bird parking was about the same as the daily train ticket, so, as I am an early bird worker, I tookadvantage of it (and the realtively congestion free traffic compared to London). However, outside of work, we took PT most places. Yeah. the trams are slower but they were far more comfortable, and a lot more frequent. Similarly, the trains were much better and were more frequent. So, win win.

 

Today, I read this article: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/how-covid-crunched-melbourne-s-public-transport-use-and-the-unlikely-winner-20240105-p5evg6.html

 

There is a cap of $10.60 a day, even for inter-city trains. So you can go from Melbourne --> Ballarat for example, return for $10.60 (or it sounded like it).

 

One of the reasons I am looking forward to returning to Melbourne is that I would say that at least the city transport, while not as voluminous as London, for my requirements, is on a par in terms of its utlity and is definitely more comfortable and better run than London. Yet, what do we need to do to get more people using it?

 

(Yeah - I get it - the less that use it the more space I will have, but that is not the preferable outcome).

 

[old man emu]

The reasons that public transport suits European cities more than Australian cities is that the population density in European cities is so much greater. Metropolitan London has an area of 1575 sq km and a population of 8.0 million. That gives a density of 5650 persons per sq km. On the other hand, the Melbourne metropolitan area is 9990 sq km with a population of 5.3 million, giving a density of 532 per sq km. London has more people to move over shorter distances.

 

Then there is the history of the motor vehicle's influence in the development of both cities. London's, in fact Britain's, public transport was well established before the advent of the motor vehicle, Melbourne, and the other Australian cities, really did not begin to expand to what they are today until well after the advent of motor vehicles. Also, public transport in Australia has always been initiated and owned by governments, which deliberately stifled private public transport by regulation, especially the placement of routes.

 

These factors result in the development of cultural attitudes to the various means of transport. Because London had its urban rail system which was linked to its inter-city system, as well as cab and bus systems, and because the way London's road system is the product of its pre-motor vehicle history, Londoners have a culture of using public transport. The opposite applies in Australia.

[facthunter]

The Density of the populace IS a factor but Melbourne had a public transport system  dating back to 1885. Not a lot of Australians could afford cars and went everywhere in trains and busses even post WW2.  You could not GET US $$'s to buy  anything USA. Steam trains did the "suburbs" in Newcastle.   Nev

[old man emu]

Sydney had a well developed tram system serving the "older" areas of the metropolitan area until the beginning of 1961. The heavy rail passenger system mostly used the lines that went inter and intrastate after they left the metropolitan area. That meant that they went in only three directions: North, West and South, with a couple of branch lines in between.

This half-spiderweb left vast areas of Sydney to develop after WWII without reasonable access to rail transport in the outer suburbs and without trams in the older areas. Also, the areas of employment that developed after WWII were not near train routes or bus routes. 

[facthunter]

Just after WW2, Sydney had the best suburban rail in Australia. At times it has even been poorly maintained to the point of being unsafe at one stage. You don't have to guess which side of politics privatises it and doesn't really believe in it.. Kennett (Geoff) did a lot of damage to  Victoria, by selling off stuff., that we are still suffering from

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Just after WW2, Sydney had the best suburban rail in Australia.

It was probably the best for the location of the population at that time, since Sydney did develop along the railway lines, but as soon as the spaces between the rail lines began to be developed, with residential and light industry, then it didn't work to provide the transport for people to the places they needed to go.

 

It'a a bit ironic that despite all the new passenger rolling stock that has replaced the old Red Rattlers, the travel times, as indicated in timetables, have not decreased. 

[facthunter]

They stop at more stations and more people get on and off.   Nev

[spacesailor]

I find the ' bus ' routes,  are taking too long to get to your destination. 

The roundabout route,  taking in different suburbs .

To get a Reasonable distance to shops , means " get the car out honey"

I don't know were to catch a bus to my ' local ' supermarket. 

spacesailor

[old man emu]

51 minutes ago, facthunter said:

They stop at more stations and more people get on and off.   Nev

There are a lot of "limited stops" services with "all stations" services interspersed. On Monday morning there are 6 services leaving Campbelltown for Central between 7:05 and 7:34, each scheduled to take 1 hr 15mins. It's taken that same time since I used the service in 1992.

[octave]

I lived in the country for many years where there was no public transport.   Whilst I enjoyed those years I was aware that this would become very difficult in my later years.    One of the criteria for choosing my present (and probably last) location is easy access to public transport.  Over the past few years, we have had to help out my parents who live interstate.  They moved to a residential park that was close to a town but not close enough to walk and with no public transport.  We were determined that we would not end up in this situation.

 

Our place here in Geelong is about a 15  walk (10 if you step it out) to the station.  It is a one-hour trip into the centre of Melbourne which is about the same as driving although looking for a park often adds substantially to this time.   A few weeks ago we had to drive from the airport where we had been parked whilst away into the city to meet someone.  Although it was a public holiday it took around 30 minutes to find a park.

 

Last week we went into the city by train.   No parking hassle or expense. Once in Melbourne you can just hop on a tram for free within the centre.   I don't know what it is like in other areas but for me, public transport is quicker and cheaper   Around Geelong I will use my bike for shopping trips etc and can sometimes go a week or more without driving my car.  Luckily my city is quite progressive when it comes to pedestrian and cycling facilities. I can ride through the center of Geelong on good quality protected bike lanes.

 

I guess if I put my negative hat on the only annoying thing is on those few occasions when I get to the station and see that terrible sign that says "bus replacement service" but I guess the lines have to be worked on sometime.

 

How can we get more people using public transport in urban/suburban areas?    I would say carrots and sticks,  perhaps more costly to take a car into the city and cheaper (although it is pretty cheap) better services public transport. 

 

In my personal situation, I can't really see how it could be more convenient or pleasant than it already is. Perhaps I am lucky in where I live.

 

Unfortunately, Australia has tended to follow the US in building cities and suburbs around roads in such a way as to make cars necessary in many suburbs.  

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[red750]

In my situation, there is no real public transport from here to either of our main shopping centres, Brentford Square or Forest Hill. Going to Forest Hill, the larger, would require a 500m walk, wait for a bus to Mitcham Station, wait for a train one station to Nunawading, wait for another bus to Forest Hill. It's 4km by car, and less than 10 minutes, each way. Parking ir not a problem. There is a 3-level car park on one side and 4 additional parking areas at the centre. The middle level holds 350 cars, but even at the busiest time  before Cristmas, never had more than 25 cars in it. Kids use it for skateboarding.

 

To go to my temporary shared Men's Shed would require the above trip to Mitcham, catch a train for Box Hill, then catch another bus to come back nearly half way to the Shed, bus stop right outside. I estimate 45 min to 1 hour each way. By car, 11 km and about 15-20 min each way.

 

Our own temporary Shed was supposed to be available between Easter and June last year, but we will be lucky if we are in by Easter this year. They haven't started cleaning up and renovating the old pigeon club shed yet. Our permanent shed, promised by the council was supposed to be available in 5 years, but going by the time it's taken them to get moving on the temp Shed, it's more likely to be 10 years. I might be dead by then. The old pigeon club shed is 4 km from home. The bus goes nowhere near it.

 

[spacesailor]

The Only time I tried to ' bus ' into Parramatta,  I got off , after an hour & walked the remainder of that journey. 40 years with only one bus trip . It is quicker to walk & you know were your heading.  As for cycling,  I haven't yet got the nerve to try it , with my new hip .

Aft all , I Did fall over when tripping in That pothole. 

spacesailor

PS :  8 minutes  by car , house to park . Must time the trip to the ' shopping centre .

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by spacesailor
A little more !

[facthunter]

Litle trips will stuff your ICE car quicktime.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I get that Australian cities were built around the car and of course population density is lower in our cities than those of Europe. The car will never be replaced in Australia, nor Europe for that matter, as thre are some applications that PT is not great for, But that does not explain why people would shun it when it is clearly the better alternative and continue to use a car? Why would its use decrease against an increasing population?

 

One reason will be that new developments don't include requsite PT infrastructure - and I get it. But I look at the map of how Melbourne has changed since I left, and there seems to be train stations along the western corridor as well as new ones to the north. And, driving to  a train station with a free car park and hopping on a train still has to be a better option that driving into Melbourne for work, then finding a park. Early bird parking is $16 I saw online, but the most you will pay for the teain is $10.60. With the roads, you have traffic jams, tolls, petrol, wear and tear, etc.

 

One other possible explanation is that post-COVID,  a lot less trips are required as most employees are still working only a couple of days a week in the office. And I would also suggest that more and more parents are driving their kids to school than letting them take PT (where walking and cycling are impractical). But still, according to the articcle, the number of (let's assume daily) fares dropped to say 41m. The population of Melbourne as at the 2021 census of of those agef from 15 to 84 years was near enough to 4m. Out of 365 days, the percentage of days on PT per person was 2,86, and out of say 200 working days, it takes it to 5.22%. That seems exceedingly low even taking into account the effects of COVID.

 

It begs thge question - what else can be done to get more people uding PT more.

[red750]

As has been mentioned, turning up at the station to the message "Replacement bus service" is a major disincentive. Also, no additional services to deal with major public attractions such as F1 Grand Prix, Australian Open, or AFL and NRL on at the same time. Sometimes late at night you can't even get standing room.

 

 

 

 

[octave]

This is an interesting article

 

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2023/mar/13/new-normal-sydney-and-melbourne-public-transport-use-still-at-80-of-pre-covid-levels

 

  I have not closely read or absorbed this yet but I just to pick out a few points. It seems that during  COVID passenger numbers dropped but have not recovered.  But here is an interesting point.

 

"Guardian Australia looked at vehicle counts on major roads around metropolitan Sydney and Melbourne and found similar results. The number of vehicles on the roads is much closer to pre-Covid levels than public transport, but there has been a reduction in morning peak-hour traffic."

 

It appears that it is not just a case of people switching from public transport to cars. People still working from home may be a partial explanation.

 

[red750]

My son works from home 3 days a week. He was given the choice of which days, so he selected the days I go to the Men's Shed, as I get p***ed off having to tip-toe around when he's on the phone. He goes into the office Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

[facthunter]

I would suggest it IS mainly the Covid effect. I haven't travelled on a train since that time. When I  did  previously and when a bus was substituted it was almost as good a  service. What I do find odd is how people will drive a new  & expensive car  a short distance to a train station, leave it there in all sorts of weather and then drive it a short distance home again.. People don't wear masks in trains either and cough all over others, talk loudly on Phones etc and I'm on Vic Rail which is heaps better than the electrified Suburban. .   Nev

[spacesailor]

I'm in walking distance to the ' rail ' station.  But having only three trains ' to ' Sydney an hour .

Then the 50 minute trip . Can , on a slow service day , make that trip one & a half hour Trip .

Plus the walk at either end . 

But

Get out the car & 40 minutes your in a " parking station ' .

Then you can ' walk ' around the shops , knowing your car is not far away . To carry your shopping to your driveway,  instead of the " trudge " from that rail station. 

spacesailor

 

Edited January 8 by spacesailor
A little more !

[facthunter]

Tolls and Parking fees and wear and tear and the risk of a prang or someone pinching your car. and the clogged freeways. Thats the downside of driving. Nev

[octave]

1 minute ago, spacesailor said:

But having only three trains ' to ' Sydney an hour .

Every 20 minutes doesn't seem too bad.  Surely if you plan your trip and get to the station at the right time that 20 minutes is irrelevant. I have not driven in Sydney for about 30 years now but I know in Melbourne if I were to drive to an appointment I would need to ensure more than 20 minutes to allow to to find a park.  Sure you might get lucky and find one straight away but you also have to allow for the fact that it could take a while to find a park.  Then there is the stress of driving in city traffic and the actual cost of the parking. 

[spacesailor]

Mostly I get free parking with a " disability permit '' , still need more disabled parking spaces 

In most car parks , but it seems we will get Less ! , due to " mums & prams " then " EV " Charging spaces , taking out more spaces than is allocated to " disabled " parking .

spacesailor

 

[red750]

Speaking of disabled parking, I saw a Tik Tok video (from USA) of a young girl parking, outside the lines, in a disbled parking spot. A young male driver yelled at her pointing out the disabled sign. She effectively gave him the finger and stormed off. He pulled up, got out with a spray can and painted her car with "Not disabled", "Rich Brat"'  emogis, and other symbols, covering every panel and window. Then he sat back and waited for her to return, when she went ballistic.

[facthunter]

Not being able to find Parking space when going for a medical appointment is the Last straw.    Nev

[spenaroo]

unpopular opinion....

too many stops.

 

trying to accommodate everyone and having a poorer service for it.
I have 4 vehicles I can choose to take. and it serves me well. I am not reliant on public transport,

But I would like to use it more, its convenient when going to populated areas like the city. especially with parking costs
but there is always the issue of time. a 30 minute drive turns into a 1 hour+ trip on public transport.
its just not time effective. (and also worried about missing the last bus/train/tram home)

 

I think we need a hub and spoke approach.

bus goes in a loop around the suburb to one central spot like the train station - then another goes from hubs to hub, no stops along the way - express to each hub.
at the new hub you can.  jump on the loop bus again to get closer to your journey...  

I think this would improve the road congestion too.
nothing is more annoying on a main road then a bus that is stopping every 500m, effectively closing a lane of traffic.
especially with another one on a different route doing the same thing 1km ahead

 

 

Edited January 8 by spenaroo