Radical Environmentalists using Aboriginal culture as a means to an end.

[old man emu]

9 hours ago, octave said:

 

I do not know what to make of this post. You are suggesting that this person is not qualified????  I don't know the answer to that but surely there is an answer and it, maybe discernable by an internet search.  the fact that he is aboriginal is immaterial to most fair-minded people.  You have asked the question whether Simon  Munkura is qualified or not. I feel that you think that you can float the suggestion that he is not, fine but present evidence 

 

My question was one of those dastardly simple ones that only needs one of two single words for its answer - Yes or No. 

 

It was important to my question to identify Mr Munkura as being an Elder of a Tiwi clan. I learned this from the transcript of the judgement in which his position within his clan was determined by the judge to be proof of his expertise to speak on the topic of Tiwi cultural beliefs. In other words, Mr Munkura is no mug when it come to the spiritual culture of his people. However, we must remember that ancient Greek warning - non supra crepidam. It is my belief that the zealots manipulated his knowledge well above the footwear to satisfy their own agenda. 

 

The idea that a Common Man, as he is likely to be, so well educated and versed in Western law and civil litigation procedure that he could really have instigated this application from his own learning and experience seems unfounded. Also not that Mr Munkura was only ever called a a witness. He never stood at the Bar Table to argue his case. That was done by government-sponsored lawyers. My whole point of this thread is that I object to taxpayers' money being frittered away by the government at a time when those same individual taxpayers are bearing the costs imposed upon them without any of their own input.

[Jerry_Atrick]

13 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

I'm sorry Octave, but your list is meaningless. A majority have no standing in climate science and some have no standing at all. Pakistan and Zimbabwe are not centres of scientific learning. Most of the web pages on the links are marketing pages for consulting services. Others presuppose imminent global warming and are addressing solutions, not assessing the scientific evidence  for climate change. Follow the money.

Can you list those that are marketing pages for consulting services? A random selection from myself didn't seem to yeild any? As for no standing in climate science - I am not sure what you mean either.. I just picked one - Royal Society of Canada. Seems to have reseach or publication over different branches of science, including climatology. Does one have to only be in climatoology to be considered authorative? Also, as a scientist yourself, there is the concept of cause and effect. The Australian Coral Reef society may have no grounding in the causes of climate change, but is likely studying the effects of climate change on various coral reefs in Australia.  They may not determine whether the climate change (or more accurately, that rate of climate change) is predominatly affected by human behaviour, but they will study the impact of the rate ofclimate change on the coral reef. Maybe it is CSIRO (undoubtedly in conjunction with others on the list) that are working through the material causes of the increase in rate of change (differentiated change).

 

I will defer to your better knowledge on Pakistan and Zimbabwe - the latter sounds plausible..

 

[Edit] On "follow the money"... yes.. that is where the ones who deny often have the most to lose my moving to sustainable/renewable energy.

 

12 hours ago, spacesailor said:

QUORUM , & more All ' state the '' the Earth was warmer before the last ice age " .

Even ' Wikipedia ' has that same search result .

Also geologist state the Earth has ' lots ' of hot & cold periods. 

spacesailor

Spacey - yes.. it is not the fact the earth is warming that is the issue - it is the rate at which it is.. and whether it can handle it without catastophic consequences (at least to life on earth as it is at the moment). Luckily, the earth's human population is forecast to plateau in the not too distant futre before a rapid drop - won't be such a famine when the earth can no longer sustain food chains suitable for human consumption (may be a little over-dramitisation - but you get my drift)

Edited January 17 by Jerry_Atrick

[spacesailor]

AGREE entirely. 

The way it is put forward through , is Humans have done this " Global Warming " recently.   ( industrial revolution) .

To me , a fallacy. 

MY take on Human activity causing ' rapid ' heat rise is. 

Those nuclear bombs burning off our air .  ( volume of lost air per blast ( all since MY lifetime )).

They Are the biggest contributor, as a lower ozone layer,  let's more solar radiation reach the ground . 

spacesailor

 

Edited January 17 by spacesailor
Missed words

[facthunter]

If you are a decent sized Igneous ROCK, you needn't worry.  Nev

[pmccarthy]

15 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I am not exactly sure what that graoh is saying; The area of the ocean with at least 15% sea ice may be a measure, but how does it compare with the total ice in the region and how that has been changing?

 

This graph, from the same site(https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/), paints a slightly different picture:

The average monthly sea ice extent seems to be reducing; an at least 15% may not take into account thinning ice

 

 

Fair point. I was thinking about the so-called threat to polar bears. They live on the ice margins, both on floating ice and on continental margins, eat fish and seals. The more ice margin for them, the better, they don’t care about the size of the ice sheet in total. Shrinkage of the overall ice sheet has enabled navigation on new routes, and exposed ancient archaeology.

[old man emu]

7 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

exposed ancient archaeology.

[pmccarthy]

12 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Enjoy! https://www.livescience.com/64605-arctic-glaciers-melt-hidden-landscape.html

[old man emu]

2 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Enjoy! https://www.livescience.com/64605-arctic-glaciers-melt-hidden-landscape.html

Sorry. I was too obtuse. I was referencing the use in the SANTOS case of recent survey data of the ocean floor in an attempt to identify the location of possible territories occupied during the last glacial maximum by early humans who may or may not be ancestors of modern residents of the Tiwi Islands. That attempt was, in my opinion clearly dirty pool. It was underhanded and exploitative of the Tiwi Islanders.

 

Will you get it through your skulls that I DO NOT DENY THAT THE CLIMATE IS CHANGING!!!!!!!!!!!. I will even go further to say that the observed increases in the temperature of the air and waters are the cumulative effect of geophysical activity and human activity including the burning of carbon-containing compounds, proliferation of domesticated animals which rely on fermentation to digest their food, and deforestation resulting in increases in "greenhouse" gases in the atmosphere. 

 

Having, hopefully, clarified my position on something that is not the subject of this thread, can we now return to that subject?

[Marty_d]

Ok, getting back to the subject.  I think it's interesting that the whole situation is represented that way.

 

"Radical environmentalists using aboriginal culture as a means to an end" is how this story is presented.

 

Not "Indigenous people fighting for their very survival, aided by conscientious activists, lose case against bloated multinational raping the planet for profit".

 

Typical of the Murdoch press, any particle of a story which can be used to beat up environmentalists / progressives / lefties,  even when the story is about the cynical attempts of a truly terrible fossil fuel company wanting to increase their profits at the expense of humanity,  has been the particle they present as "news".  

 

Jeez, if a busload of schoolchildren with a medically incapacitated driver was rolling towards a cliff,  and a bystander broke open the door to turn the wheel and bring it to a safe stop,  Sky News would probably report it as "Insane man attacks busload of terrified children."

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

if a busload of schoolchildren with a medically incapacitated driver was rolling towards a cliff,  and a bystander broke open the door to turn the wheel and bring it to a safe stop,  Sky News would probably report it as "Insane man attacks busload of terrified children."

Errr, a bloke would have to be totally crazy to try that.... so Sky nrews would possibly be making their first accurate news report.

[facthunter]

IF sky did that It would in fact be the BIG news of the century. . The Western world could move ahead in leaps and bounds.  Nev

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, Marty_d said:

"Radical environmentalists using aboriginal culture as a means to an end" is how this story is presented. Not "Indigenous people fighting for their very survival, aided by conscientious activists, lose case against bloated multinational raping the planet for profit".

You still haven't grasped the point of this thread.

 

Let's agree on some things:

1. SANTOS is a bloated multinational whse sole aim is to maximise profits from its activities, and the Hell with anyone who is not a shareholder.

2. The Tiwi Islanders are not fighting for the very survival of their persons, nor of the practise of their culture.

3. For the Tiwi, the Rainbow Serpent lives in "the waters over there". There is nothing in their songlines to indicate a definite region, as there is for the spirits of Uluru.

4. It was indicated in the Court that the located adduced for the place of the Crocodile Man was not fully accepted by all Tiwi clans, and in fact some believed it to be quite some distance away from where the adduced evidence indicated.

 

The correct wording of the alternative heading should indicate that environmental activists were pushing a case, aided by biased interpretations of indigenous culture. The learned judge saw through the activists actions and dismissed the application base on a lack of concrete proof that the placement of the pipeline would destroy a tangible element related to cultural practice.

 

I've actually seen, or have seen photographs of indigenous rock carvings around Sydney. I would no more like to see them broken up than I would like to see St Andrews or St Marys Cathedrals under the wrecking ball.

 

 

[spacesailor]

To rid ourselves of those two building .

We can have .

Two gigantic apartments,  housing multitudes of families. 

I say demolish them asp , Please ! .

spacesailor

PS : why ' they suck the last dime from the poorest people. 

 

[facthunter]

So we would eventually Go to Sydney to see Apartments that become Vertical Slums? Not that I care that much about Churches but they are often amongst the best buildings in a Town.  Nev

Edited January 20 by facthunter

[spacesailor]

WHO paid for that ' gold leaf ' that covers most of the ceilings. 

The POOR . 

When you have $ million income a $ 100 or two is chicken feed .

A poor sod on $ 12grand a year , $ twenty , it's a lot of money, that if they ' don't pay ' 

They will never get into heaven .

( were it's cold damp  & the harp music is boring, to say the least ).

You'd think that the Alternative accommodation would be better .

Hot music , hot girls,  & the party never ends . LoL

spacesailor

 

[willedoo]

8 hours ago, old man emu said:

4. It was indicated in the Court that the located adduced for the place of the Crocodile Man was not fully accepted by all Tiwi clans, and in fact some believed it to be quite some distance away from where the adduced evidence indicated.

That's an easy one - the Crocodile Man was from Beerwah.

[willedoo]

ome, apologies for making the above joke. I know you've tried hard to steer this thread back on topic and appreciate that.

[old man emu]

11 hours ago, willedoo said:

apologies for making the above joke.

The location reference detracted somewhat, but finding out where the place was revealed the joke.

[nomadpete]

50 minutes ago, old man emu said:

The location reference detracted somewhat, but finding out where the place was revealed the joke.

The one in the main street of Normanton would eat that  tiddler for breakfast.

[nomadpete]

Back to thread, I'm not particularly upset about the environmentalists using any means at their disposal to stop gas drilling.

 

Especially if  Santos are going to do fracking. I have seen the western Qld gas fields 'developed'.

From the air it looks like wholesale devastation of the land. Tens of thousands of holes, each with bulldozed road access. On the ground there are a lot of farmers crying out about water wastage and aquifer damage.

And nobody can prove how much of this greenhouse gas escapes (called fugitive emissions), but it is sometimes a lot. My stepson has worked as driller and the stories I hear never get media mention.

[old man emu]

Well, until the environmentalists stop banning the use of uranium as a non-polluting heat source for electricity generation, put up with fossil fuels.

[nomadpete]

1 minute ago, old man emu said:

Well, until the environmentalists stop banning the use of uranium as a non-polluting heat source for electricity generation, put up with fossil fuels.

I'd rather put up with solar, wind turbines, and hydro, thanks.

[old man emu]

4 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

I'd rather put up with solar, wind turbines, and hydro, thanks.

I don't see any problem with having those in the energy generation mix, but aren't the greatest polluters fossil fuels?

[facthunter]

There's general agreement on that and it passes the pub test. Sunshine  Wind and tides will be there anyhow. Nuclear releases heat that wouldn't be released at that rate in normal processes  so ADDS heat to the equation and It's EXPENSIVE and needs a network Leaving control in equity groups (Not individuals) and there's difficulty cleaning up afterwards.  Nev

[willedoo]

We're straying off topic a bit. There's already a climate change debate thread elsewhere on the forum. This thread is about whether environmentalists are using Aboriginal culture as a means to an end. One question is to what degree the preservation of Aboriginal culture should take precedence over all other interests. In the case of crocodile and other spirits, they are not something physical like rock art and artifacts. The pipeline sits on supports on the sandy seabed in an area where some people think a spirit dwells. Do these spirits really exist? Who knows; something like that is not provable either way.

 

A bit of a sidetrack here, but some people who fiercely defend the Aboriginal people's religious beliefs and their spirits, are also very quick to heap scorn on anyone who believes in a Christian or other god. Maybe some double standards there.