At last - sense in education

[old man emu]

It seems that some people in the real world have a bit of sense. Representatives of the motor trade are calling for young people to be told that getting paid while learning a trade is better than getting an allowance to go to a university. 

 

The call has been prompted by a lack of tradespersons in the automotive repair industry. This lack of tradespersons, or even persons skilled in other tasks, is hitting all over the place.

 

At the moment my sister is trying to get a farrier to attend to the hooves of her horses. These horses are paddock ornaments, but they still need their feet done because a horse's hoof (no not a gay young man) grows like fingernails. Since horses walk on their toe, if the hoof gets too long it puts strain on the ligaments of the leg. 

 

What are called the knee bones correspond to our wrist and everything else to the ground are the phalanges equivalent to our long finger.

 

I found a horseshoeing school in the USA that provides tuition in shoeing. A 16-week course costs $USD 12000, or about $AUD 16000. Then you'd have accommodation and travel and purchasing the tools of the trade. I suppose you could finance attending the course for about $AUD 30,000. I don't know how that compares to the cost of a university degree, but at least once a person got back from the course, they would be inundated with work. One farrier quoted my sister $90.00 per horse. I reckon that equates to the same amount my mechanic charges for labour to service my car.

[facthunter]

Why would you expect the job to be done for less?. CARs don't jump around when you are working on them. Work on cars is at least 110$/hr plus profit on the Parts used.  Nev

[onetrack]

The days are long gone when nearly every second person could shoe horses. As with every "old" trade, the number of people doing that type of work has reduced to barely measurable numbers, so the people left with the skills can charge what they like.

A mates daughter is a vet, specialising in horses - and very expensive horses. She works on the billionaires racing horses, some of them worth a million or two million.

She gets very well rewarded for her work, but it's hard work, and worse than being a doctor. At least when you're a doctor, the patients can usually tell you where it hurts, or how they feel - horses just kick!

 

I knew one farmer who copped a hoof from a horse in the face when he was young (probably the 1930's), he wasn't pretty to look at.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Why would you expect the job to be done for less?

Thanks for the immediate diversion from the theme of the original post!!!!!!!!!!

 

What your mechanic charges and what mine does is completely irrelevant to a topic that deals with the need to destigmatise the gaining of the specialist knowledge required to keep society functioning.

 

There is a hoary old joke about the value of some university degrees.

 

Undergraduates were having the awarding of degrees ceremony explained to them.

The Tutor asked, "What to you say to the Dean as you are handed your Degree?"

Came a voice from the back, "Do you want fries with that?"

[spacesailor]

Well , my daughter has done ' farriering ' without formal training. 

Now she is mending ' motorcycle's in Dubbo .

spacesailor

PS : we need a plumber in this family . LoL

 

 

[Litespeed]

Yes we need more Trad skills and  to promote easy pathways into these trades.

 

Generations have been forced into the uni sausage maker to suit capitalism and just end with big debt and less prospects than a steam train builder etc.

 

For Farriers, a good one is worth the price. They are fundamental to the horses health and your safety around them, hoof issues are big in many falls off a horse. A comfy horse is a safe one. 

My farrier used to also have not just horses to deal with but the huge house goat 🐐 that would want to play about.

 

If you have dogs, get all the toe clippings and they love it. Natures chewing gum.

[Jerry_Atrick]

The Hawke years saw a concerted effort to grow university numbers - transform the lucky country to the clever country. I don't see encouraging greater participation in university as a problem itself as even the so called "useless" degrees to teach critical thinking, for example. Of course, before they introduced fees (HECS), it was more financially justifiable to the students, especially of those "useless" degrees. But, we have to remember, not all people who graduate from the more traditionally "useful" degrees get work, either, and many don't end up working on the vocation for which they trained. Also, after a peak in 2016 of the absolute number of students enrolled in university, it has dropped by around 4% by 2022, which, given the population has increased in that time, represents a larger drop per capita: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/nov/16/australia-higher-education-university-enrolment-decline-falls-why-cost. I guess the question is, is the value of education only to be meausred in the uptake of careers and the ability to earn an income from it, or is there also value in a better educated population in general that can hopefully critically think better and assess all sorts of things as opposed to swallowing, I dunno, political party, lobbyist, media, or other propoganda  - as an example?

 

Over here, we have less tertiary participation, and for trades, a broadly similar apprenticeship structure as Australia (or was, when I left). However, over here, there have recently been introduced four levels of apprenticehsips  - Level 2 and 3 are for your typical trade type apprenticeships (and level 3 is required to get a trade qualification - called a BTEC over here). Level 4 is for basic managerial, and degree apprencticeships are what they say on the tin - at the end of it, one obtains a government accredited degree. These are used as alternate (and increasingly mainstream) ways of entering the professions such as accounting,  computer science, law, and the like. In fact,  my partner and I were at our solicitors on Monday last week and as our daughter wants to be a lawyer, my partner asked if they had work experience placements.. During the conversation, the lawyer (who was a partner in the firm) asked how our daughter was planning to qualify and expressed a peference for the degree apprenticeships.

 

[edit]  and no.. I did not push her to want to be one..

 

UK apprenticeship levels: https://www.ratemyapprenticeship.co.uk/advice/types-of-apprenticeships/#What-are-the-4-types-of-apprenticeships?

 

 

 

Edited January 28 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

10 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I guess the question is, is the value of education only to be meausred in the uptake of careers and the ability to earn an income from it, or is there also value in a better educated population in general that can hopefully critically think better and assess all sorts of things

It is a characteristic of an advanced civilisation that it can support a cadre of "thinkers". ("Cadre": a small group of people specially trained for a particular purpose or profession.) Just look at every ancient civilisation, and even every era ever since. There have been the "intellectuals" or the learned. However, these people could not spend their days sitting to think great things, and writing their ideas down if there was not a workforce to make the seat and the desk; the material to write upon, and the quills to write with. 

 

19 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

However, over here, there have recently been introduced four levels of apprenticehsips 

We have a graduated system of education from preschool to post-doctoral. It is called vocational education and training (VET). Basically this is a multi-level system with sets of competencies to be reached at each level. These competencies have been developed in conjunction with the occupations or professions the student will enter.  Leaving aside the VET competencies a student attains from preschool to leaving high school, the VET system begins at the Certificate level. With a Certificate I, introduces the knowledge and skills for initial work, while completing a Certificate IV gives the practical and theoretical skills for more specialised skilled work. For example, an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (AME) will hold a Certificate IV qualification. The next level is the Diploma. An AME who completes the Diploma can apply to CASA to be a LAME. 

 

There is a split at the completion of the high school level. One can either go along the Certificate route, or, if a university education is desired, go to the Degree/Higher Degree route.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Maybe I didn't quite express myself properly, so I will use an example. Say someone got a Bachelor of Arts wth a  majar in philosophy - and then they couldn't get a job because not many people hire philosophers these days, so, they managed to score an apprenticeship (or did a certificate) in plumbing.. and that person stayed a plumber for the rest of their working life. Is that Bachelor of Arts wasted because it was not used in an oocupattional sense? Or does it still add value in the sense of advancing that plumber's thought processes - thereby while not a monetary gain, there is still; a personal and societal gain resulting from time spent in education? In other words, is that value of education only the value derivable from potential income that can be earned off the back of it?? It is not can society support contemplators - but does society itself benefit from as many people getting higher education - even if they do not ultimately go in to use it?

 

I don't know the answer, to be honest. My (warped) intuition tells me that if that higher education is purely vocational - for example, and I am only guessig, a degree in digital media production, then maybe it is a waste. But if the degree is academically rigorous and teaches critical thinking and other necessities of earning such a degree, then there may well be some value other than that of income derived from that occupation trained for, or from using it in one's primary day to day life, such as sitting and contemplating it. Well, my intuition tells me and I recall a very short term contract I did for IB< Australia - it was about 4 weeks from memory. During the contract, one manager and I spoke about me becoming a permanent employee and when I handed him my CVm he said not possible.. I was a self-taught programmer at the time and they only employed people who had a degree into professional roles.He gave two reasons - one it could prove that they can finish something they started (and I said, well, I set out to be a programmer and have been admitted to the Aussie Computer Society - so job accomplished), and his second reason was as they didn't care what the degree was in, it was about learning to laterally think and understand, not simply memorising some theory and applying it.

 

In capital markets banking (more or less trading - either the primary or secondary markets), most banks only take interns with degrees.. and they don't care what as their assessments work out if they (think they)  will be good or not. We have a head of desk (effectively owner of the line of business) in a trading line that is heavy on the maths - and he graduated as a lawyer- no maths in that degree.

 

In terms of education - outside the foundation stages (say up to year 10 or 11), it generally becomes vocational or academic focussed. the former is more training, the latter is more education.

 

Two weeks ago, I atteneded a critical thinkng course; apparently the traditional foundational education approach stifles a lot of what would allow kids to obtain an education rather than simply being trained. Finland has bucked the trend and is (or at least was) regarded the country with the best education system.

 

[old man emu]

There's one thing for sure, Jerry. You should have taken a course in Touch Typing. 

 

Seriously, though. You have sketched my situation. All through high school there was the expectation that I would got to university. I did, and I completed my degree in Agricultural Science. I managed to fail a 3-month probation as an Animal Nutritionist and have never worked in a situation in which I applied my knowledge, except for about 12 months when I worked in a feed mill tipping ingredients into a mixer and using my knowledge of animal nutrition to substitute for ingredients I was short of.

 

However, over the years I was able to use my ability to think to become effective in law enforcement and investigation. I took that to its highest level by becoming the first Australian policeman to hold international qualifications in accident reconstruction. Unfortunately, I was never given instruction in workplace politics or self-aggrandisement, so I finished my career still a constable. Thereafter I took on a job where I learned all about aircraft hardware and a smidgeon of aircraft maintenance. Then I picked up the skills to conduct management system audits. Long story, short. During my life I have interested myself in an eclectic range of topics, ranging from historical research to how to fix an engine. I reckon that I'm not too bad at putting words together to make some sensible contribution to a discussion.

 

However, as I sit here in my retirement years and contemplate my life, I wonder if I would not have had a happier one if I had taken on a trade. 

[facthunter]

Nah. , According to a very high Authority on all matters T a Bot ,TAFE only teaches people how to Basket Weave and SCIENCE is JUST another BELIEF and all the auto workers he made jobless are  now  free to get DECENT jobs. Lots of rich kids just went to UNIVERSITY  for the Social aspects on Campus and also to delay working  and making a decision about it as long as possible. B4 you blow a gasket Red. the first bit is TRUE . The last bit is a personal observation and MAY not apply to All students..  Nev

[pmccarthy]

I believe in apprenticeships and cadet ships. I won a Cadetship and got an engineering degree after six years of part-time study in evening classes. The people who did it that way did better in their subsequent careers than the full time students. They graduated with six years of hands on experience in the workplace.

[facthunter]

That was the case with the group of teachers I went through with. Four night s a week . Results way  above the full time students on average. More motivated to not just "fool around". Most of us were a bit older. Nev

[old man emu]

Working in the IT industry is one place where four years' workplace experience beats four years' university study.

 

Just take two equally intelligent young people. Start one on a uni IT course and the other in a job that requires systems knowledge and problem solving skills. At the end of the four years, the problem solver is a better choice as an employee because in order to do what has been done over the previous four years, the problem solver has had to "ride the crest of the wave" to keep up with ongoing developments.

 

On the other hand, the uni graduate has absorbed knowledge from a course syllabus that was written sometime prior to the time the person began the course. Therefore what they are given from the syllabus in their fourth year is four years off the back of the wave. 

 

My son went the first route and at one stage was in a position to interview job applicants. He gave those with Masters degrees the time of day, but not a job because they were not competent to work in a business environment which involved creating IT solutions for businesses which needed the IT mainly for administrative purposes, which is what most businesses use IT for. Even manufacturing businesses which use computer aided operations are not interested in how a system works. They just want it to work and be fixed if it breaks.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Your memory will depend on how old you are. I was the last of the civil engineers who were in great demand in the 1960's. They were lucky to get taxi-driving jobs in the 1990's. Only medical graduates have hung on in recent years.

Tertiary places succumbed to managerialism and this caused standards to drop badly. The new directors were mainly concerned with the money the institution got from selling degrees.

There was a scandal when Flinders University was caught giving 2 week " courses" in english to chinese students. They of course learned nothing in those 2 weeks, but I bet the subsequent lecturers all got into trouble if they failed them.

[Bruce Tuncks]

 It was MUCH harder to get an apprenticeship in the 1990's and correctly so...  The apprenticeship was a much better meal-ticket.

[Bruce Tuncks]

There sure is a good case to be made that teaching critical thinking is useful. Jerry Atrick has made a good case for this. Unfortunately, the problem of what to do with those who enrolled but don't have the ability to think critically has stopped this.

There are some vocations which require any degree to get into.... police for example. This is because they have found that you can otherwise employ an illiterate. In the 1960's, the requirement was for "passing year 9 " and I personally think that they have kept a fairly level bar.

Yep, I reckon that a degree these days is about equal to a year 9 pass way back then.

[facthunter]

Just "Theory" and No practical  doesn't work well. Apprentices are paid as it they are 16 years old. Mature age apprentices are financially strapped but a lot more use  than young blokes who just want "stuff around" In class and whinge that they can't afford a NEW car/UTE.   Nev