Indigenous Sovereignty Demands

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 30/08/2024 at 10:27 PM, nomadpete said:

1:- Integration to bring harmony via compromise. (Didn't work in the past).

 

2:- Provision of a time warp bubble to preserve old ways. (Didn't work in the past).

1. The official policy of integration was to eradicate first nations culture. In other words, subjugation. Why would First Nations people aquiesce to that. I recall the book and move, Roots coming out and how so many people found the courage of Kunta Kinte (sp? but named by his white masters, as Toby) inspiring. Why do we find First Nations peoples rsolve to preserve their culture as a nemesis and not also inspiring? (I am not talking about the sunstance abuse and social behavioural issues).

 

2. This was the official policy of protectionism.. It only didn't work from the perspective that the colonists seruoiusly thought First Nations peoples biology was defective and they would die out. Of course, because of the sacred lands and their national boundaries, preserving them in a bubble would mean giving back the lands, and that was and will never be on the cards, and in reality nor should it.

 

On 30/08/2024 at 10:27 PM, nomadpete said:

I am looking for the all new item 3.

Yes, I think that is mutual.. And this is the rub... what is the all new item that will lead to reconciliation? Does anyone know? Or should society enter into a discussion in GOOD faith? This would mean tear away the BS and the lies and look at the positions and the requests, and work together to get a compromise. I don't know what it is.. It ins't handing back the keys, nor giving carte blanche.. In fact, from what I have read, a lot is about simple recognition and accomodation of some First Nations cultural values in the way society deals with them. Is that too much to ask? Yes, there are some more extreme requests, and should be given short shrift. But we do have to get away from compartmentalising First Nations people's demands  and getting them to conform to entirely western ways. For example, I agree with @Bruce Tuncks - if First nations peoples are using modern methods and tech to hunt traditional prey, they should be somewhat constricted on how much they can catch.

 

On 30/08/2024 at 10:27 PM, nomadpete said:

There have been a few notable such international compensations carried out in recent history, but there must be many thousands that were left to fade as nations merged and shifted through the ages. It would do little to resolve the resentment that rises when one culture gets swamped by another.

 

Yes there have.. But many that haven't been carried out have been where there has been a total takeover. Take Kosovo for example; a previously Christian enclave now taken over by Muslims... completely. But Australian First Nations is different. We still have a population that is First Nations that, regardless of historical injustices suffers some of the worst social problems of any indigenous populations in the world. Well, do we want to look after all of our Australians, or continue the problems because they don't want to betray their culture entirely? By the way, we have made strides in recent years. Of course, I am looking at it from mostly a legal spectrum, but there are Koori courts, and there are, you know, I can't recall the name, but where there is a magistrates case being heard of First Nations people that live on the land, they get the magistrate, the Aunties, family, and accused together in a circle and go through the case. It is definitely a positive step.

 

On 30/08/2024 at 10:27 PM, nomadpete said:

I can only see it being a divisive approach to our conundrum.

I disagree, as long as you keep people like Dutton out of it and keep the narrative and discussion in good faith. .There will be disagreements, but if everything is in good faith, it will eventually come to compromise and agreement. Of course, in the current socio-political environment, that is just a pipedream.

 

On 31/08/2024 at 8:09 AM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Suppose that you lived back then ( first fleet) and could determine just which lot colonised you. I bet that you would, after a lot of reflection, choose the poms as the least worst. Just compare the present riches of the australian abos with that of the latin american indigenous, for example.

I don't disagre with you; in fact I have expressed something similar to First Nations peoples previously. However, this does not mean we should not try and right some previous wrongs and practically accomodate first nations culture within our established Westminster culture. Although, I have to admit, I can't see myself eating any grubs!

 

By now you will have all realised, I am a bit of a mongrel; when I get a bone, I don't want to let it go.

 

Edited September 1 by Jerry_Atrick

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

For example, I agree with @Bruce Tuncks - if First nations peoples are using modern methods and tech to hunt traditional prey, they should be somewhat constricted on how much they can catch.

This is dated 14 years ago but it gives some idea of the variation in laws between the States and Commonwealth.

 

https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication/recognition-of-aboriginal-customary-laws-alrc-report-31/35-aboriginal-hunting-fishing-and-gathering-rights-current-australian-legislation/australian-legislation-on-hunting-fishing-and-gathering-an-overview/

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Although, I have to admit, I can't see myself eating any grubs!

Witchetty grubs are very nice to eat. They have a slight peanut flavoured scrambled egg taste. A bit of work involved finding them though.

[onetrack]

It is a basic fallacy and an unsatisfactory approach to try and compare the Aboriginals of Australia with the Negro slaves of America, with the American Red Indians, or even with the Maoris.

All those cultures are vastly different - and if you want to see real hatred and divisiveness, see what the attitude of Aboriginals is towards other black people, and even Maoris - they treat them like dirt.

 

All the Governmental decisions taken in past decades have largely centred around the basic facts that the Aboriginal cultures are largely unable to manage themselves, and manage large amounts of money, in a Western democratic setting of rule.

The Aboriginals live for today, tomorrow doesn't factor into their planning. They rely on constant assistance from others, for their lack of planning ability.

 

"Humbugging" is a unique feature of the Aboriginal culture. "Humbugging" is basically, constant begging for money. Despite being given adequate money in every case of every Aboriginal (they can even get special payments from Centrelink, that Whites can't get). They burn up money as fast as it's given to them, they have zero money management ability. In many remote areas, you'll see signs stating "no humbugging".

 

At my local shopping centre, 5kms from the Perth CBD, the entrance doors are regularly blocked by Aboriginals begging - on a constant daily basis. This is the "mob" who claim they have constantly been robbed - and yet they have just been given land rights over the entire S.W. Region of W.A., and been given $1.5B in direct cash payment, plus the Govt set up no less than SEVEN new Aboriginal corporate bodies, just specially for this group - all fully Govt funded for 12 years - at a reported cost of another $600M! All this for just 3,500 claimants.

 

https://www.noongarboodjatrust.info/

 

If you've ever travelled in the remote areas or isolated rural areas, you'll often encounter Aboriginals who have run out of fuel in their car - because they never factored in fuel use in their trip planning.

It was never a requirement of their original culture or lifestyle, and nothing has changed in their outlook in the 236 years since Europeans arrived and set up their ordered and planned society, and style of Govt.

 

The Aborigines are the original communists, they never owned anything of manufactured value, apart from spears, nulla-nullas, woomeras, grindstones and dilly bags. As a result, they have little respect for the intrinsic value of manufactured items of value.

The Govt of Australia builds them nice houses in remote locations, at mind-boggling cost - and they totally destroy them, because they lack appreciation of what has been provided for them, and the cost involved.

Then they complain the houses weren't designed properly for their cultural usage requirements. They demand to be treated differently to Europeans, and to always get special treatment.

 

Their attitude is similar to children, with constant demands for unearned rewards, selfish behaviour, constant demands for money for doing nothing, constant demands for expensive items they have no appreciation for.

It's little wonder that the bulk of the hard-working Australian population gets sick of the constant whining, complaining, and demanding of "entitlements", that accompany most Aboriginal outbursts.

 

As to the constant complaints about "stolen" Aboriginal land, I'd wager very few Aboriginals even know, or appreciate, that they now have freehold ownership and vast amounts of control over more than 16% of the Australian land mass - as well as receiving multiple billions in monetary compensation, in various forms. All this, for a culture that makes up just 3% of the Australian population.

 

https://www.pc.gov.au/closing-the-gap-data/dashboard/se/outcome-area15/land-and-water-ownership#:~:text=Nationally as at June 2023,baseline year) (figure SE15a.

 

https://www.nsw.gov.au/living-in-nsw/aboriginal-outcomes/healing/stolen-generations/reparations#:~:text=The Stolen Generations Reparations Scheme provided ex-gratia payments to,applications on 30 June 2023.

 

 

Edited September 2 by onetrack

[red750]

A private school will no longer be able to hold school camps on a South Australian island after a Native Title ruling. 

 

Students at Adelaide's Scotch College had enjoyed going to Goose Island, on the Yorke Peninsula, for school camps since 1966, taking part in activities like snorkelling, kayaking and sailing.

 

The school's licence to access the island was due to expire in 2027, but trips to Goose Island will now end later this year.

 

Scotch College was permitted to use the island for camps through a licence agreement with the Department of Environment and Water.

 

However, in March last year, the Federal Court ruled the Narungga people were Native Title holders of the state's Yorke Peninsula, which includes Goose Island.

 

Scotch College Principal Trent Driver said he was 'profoundly disappointed' that a request had been made for the school to 'hand the island back to traditional owners for alternative uses'.

 

'After several months of good faith negotiations and discussions between the College and DEW, we were informed the licence agreement with Scotch will now end in December 2024, and we will not have access to the island for school programs in the years ahead,' he said in a letter to parents on Tuesday, The Advertiser reported.

[onetrack]

Former ATSIC head, Aboriginal Geoff Clark, found guilty of $1M fraud, whereby he diverted ATSIC funds to his own personal use. His son has also been found guilty of fraud, associated with his fathers rorting.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-04/former-atsic-head-geoff-clark-found-guilty-fraud/104308834

[Marty_d]

Scotch College? Really? We're meant to be upset that a school which charges $30k per year per child can't visit some island?

For that money they could send the kids to the Bahamas for their camp, although it may get a bit boring for some of them as Daddy takes them in his private jet every holiday anyway.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I didn't get Marty' problem, but I sure reckon that they( the abos) would soon learn about money management if they were faced with any consequences of their actions.Like Uluru ...   I think that the "no climb" rule has been rescinded, because it kept tourists away.

 

[old man emu]

Am I wrong, or are the Aboriginal groups of South Australia very reactionary?

 

Wasn't it another S.A. group that tried to stop a proposed bridge to Hindmarsh Island, near Goolwa, South Australia. In 1994, a group of Ngarrindjeri women elders claimed the site was sacred to them for reasons that could not be revealed. The Hindmarsh Island Royal Commission found that "secret women's business" had been fabricated.

[spacesailor]

Not only the " climbing ban " but ,

NO TOURIST PHOTOS.  

Really needed to be shouted out.

All those overseas visitors,  going home without photos.

imagine,  no photo of the " Opera house " or other 

Tourist attractions. 

spacesailor

PS : I took photographs of every sign with the rock in the background. 

Edited September 5 by spacesailor
PS added

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, I just hate it when they try and enforce their beliefs over what I regard as common sense. I was not aware of the ban on taking photos, but I can imagine it. Apparently, the $50 note not only has a picture of a dead person on it, it has a picture of a dead blackfellow!

There is no known example of $50 being declined on these grounds.

[spacesailor]

but

will you except a $ note without Queen Elizabeth's picture on it .

my first money had the king ,

then changed to the QUEEN ,

and I suppose ,

back to a king .

three monarchs in one lifetime,  not too bad .

but then, there's , William. 

spacesailor

[old man emu]

Senator Jacinta Price was interviewed on Sky New about an incident related to a "Welcome to Country" ceremony at an AFL game, and the co-opting of Aboriginal topics into the recent arms dealers' convention in Melbourne.

 

Her comments struck me a being so positive in promoting unification of Aboriginals and non-Aboriginals to simply be Australians. You can hear her comments from the 0:50 time stamp in this video.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

As much as i don't like to disagree with onetrack, I have to with respect to "the first nations culture".

I reckon its a terrible culture, especially for the womenfolk. My first idea about this was to wonder why they tended to stay with the rough white man who kidnapped them, till I found just how badly they were treated by the tribe. This was as a youth in the 1950's Alice Springs.

[old man emu]

Should we mention the incident involving the "welcome to country" incident at the AFL game last weekend?

 

How ignorant was the "elder" who claimed that the Aboriginal culture was 250,000 years old. The factual problem with that claim is that between 70,000 and 100,000 years ago, Homo sapiens began migrating from the African continent and populating parts of Europe and Asia. They reached the Australian continent sometime between 35,000 and 65,000 years ago, with current archeological evidence suggesting the 65,000 year figure as being provable.

 

This is what Liberal Senator, Alex Antic had to say.

 

 

Further, the elder made the statement that the welcome was meant for black fellas, not white. Yet Senator 

[Jerry_Atrick]

OK.. I haven't seen it, and I would suggest not many people on the forum have, either. So, I went looking for it.. on Youtibe, because you can bet your bottom dollar that if it was a controversy, then Youtube would be litterd with examples of it. I found three - two from Sky News (Australia) and I thought there was one from the Daily Wail, but can't find it anymore.

 

Let's say it was stated that welcome to country was claimed to be around for 250,000 years.. Could it not have been a slip of the tongue.. Presenting in front of a large crowd can result in nerves getting the better of people? Have we not seen that before.

 

And let's nto forget, the party this senator is a member of has is alleged to have been somewhat infiltrtated by Hillsong cchurch people.. And I am guessing if this is the most pressing thing a senator comes upo with in terms of issues facing the country, he is not far from that cult. You know, those that believe in Adam and Even, and I am guessing that is purported to be quite a bit earlier than the 100,000 years of homo sapients, replendent with a talking snake, and belief in Noah's ark, which cannot be true unles it was hundreds of millions of years ago to let evolution re-evolve all of the land creatures creatures it was missing.. And then that would not quite add up to two of the more modern animals, but would be two brontasouruses, etc.

 

Yeah.. Believe it or not, Aboriginals have their own religions and beliefs, unfounded, just like everyone else. For example, they believe they were in Australia (or their country in Australa) from the Draming time... https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/evidence-of-first-peoples. Now, is somehow non-Aboriginals totally unfounded and religious beliefs more real and justifiable than Aboriginals? So, maybe they thing dreaming started a little over 250K years ago.. and welcome to country did start around 250,000 years ago.. It is a wrong belief, but science has rebuked most of the crap in other religions, but other religions get a free pass?

 

Personally I would rather be in the crowd at the SCG sitting through a ceremony even if I didn't like it, as I could don my headphones or just talk to the others around me, ignorning it than say have to endure wfts of cigarette smoke in publoc - and infringement of my rights not to smoke that I cannot escape.

 

FFS, Some perspective, please.

 

Edited Thursday at 06:02 PM by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

5 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Some perspective, please.

Jerry, you are not getting it shoved down you neck, day in and day out. You have to remember that the "welcome to country" gig was invented by, admittedly an Aboriginal person, Ernest Ashley Dingo AM, originating from the Yamatji people of the Murchison region of Western Australia. In 1976 he controversially collaborated with Richard Walley to create a public performance of the "Welcome to Country" ceremony in Perth in 1976, after dancers from the Pacific islands would not perform without one.

 

The use of the word "ceremony" and its being conducted in public, does make one question if such a ceremony was indeed part of the Yamatji culture. It does seem to have been widely adopted by Aboriginals whose homelands are far from W.A. I wonder if there has been any enquiry as to whether such ceremonies were widespread in Aboriginal culture.

 

Whatever the source of the "welcome to country", it does raise the question posed by those whose families have lived here for at least 175 years; for individuals who have been born here and for whom

I love a sunburnt country, and

I still call Australia home

have to continually be welcomed to that part of the country where they themselve have strong family and emotional ties. 

 

The ceremony is as divisive as the recent amendment to the Discrimination Act that threw out genetics as the definition of male of female in the application of the provisions of that Act.

[onetrack]

"Welcome to Country" ceremonies have turned into a PC money-making exercise for Aboriginals in the right position to exert power over all Govt authorities - and in turn, make the rest of the nation hostage to this basically fabricated, "important tribal heritage", BS ceremony.

 

My father had a substantial level of interaction with Yamatji people in the Station country of the Murchison region of W.A. in the 1930's. He lived on Doolgunna Station for 4 years, from 1930 to 1934, and the Aboriginals in that era still lived a largely traditional, quite nomadic lifestyle, on and between Stations and on Crown Land - and even though corroborees were held regularly, there was no such ceremony as "Welcome to Country" in the Yamatji tribal culture. He attended numerous corroborees, and was amused at the simplicity and essentially child-like entertainment involved in them.

 

The corroborees were like modern TV entertainment for the tribe, the older Aborigines made up simple chants to relay news and information to the others in the tribe. Dad was amused by one chant (accompanied by didgerdoo and clapsticks), that went, "Na-Na-Na ..... Na-Na-Na .... Jimmy got a new motor car" (Jimmy being the station owner, and he'd recently bought a new Dodge tourer).

 

Dad was quite impressed by many facets of the Yamatji culture and skills, including the technique of catching fish in local billabongs by stripping bark from the local Paperbark trees to make a small raft, then setting the raft afloat on the water of the billabong with a couple of picanninies sitting on it, while the adults walked abreast, behind it.

 

The adults then beat the water with their hands, and the fish became startled and jumped high in the air around the raft - whereby the picanninies on the raft would then knock them onto the raft, collecting a nice selection for a tribal fish feed.

 

Edited Thursday at 11:45 PM by onetrack

[spacesailor]

I ,object strongly  .

As a father of an " acute asthmatic " .

Any polluting smoke should be banned .

I am also asthmatic but only a litte , when those ' deliberately lit fires are burning,  We have to put ourselves in jail , doors & windows shut tight running an 

' Air-filter  '.

400 people died in Sydney ,after the fire's started 

that huge choking smoke, that put the wife & I into hospital .

spacesailor

[red750]

I have no knowledge of this subject or aboriginal rituals, but from reading various stories and reports, this is just my take on it.

 

Each aboriginal group had their territory, like we have states and nations. Each kept pretty much to their own. However, if one group went walkabout into another group's territory, a form of corroboree was conducted to show that there was no animosity, the the newcomers were welcome to transit the territory. I believe that Ernie Dingo developed this practice for the benefit of the Pacific Islanders and it  became ingrained in the routine of the groups, who then saw the financial benefit of performing the ritual at the drop of a hat. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

There was definitely no "welcome to country" ever in the Alice Springs area. Me and Walter ( the black kid I sat next to in grade 4-5 ) would have known about it for sure. Just as there were no "stolen" generation kids...  we would have known them by name, and ( thanks for asking) Walter from borroloola went home for school holidays.

The fact is and was, the different tribes hated each other and they needed a lot of space between them or they would kill each other. All was well until the govt found it was much cheaper to get them living in suburbs in Alice Springs, whereupon different tribes may find themselves living together.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

And Marty ,  I reckon that it is one thing to hate the rich kids who go to Scotch College, it is a quite different thing to fund, with taxpayer's money, abos who just want to be nasty. Personally, I would reduce their funding by the amount of rent they would have got from that rich school.

[Marty_d]

I don't hate anyone Bruce (with maybe a few well deserved exceptions) - my point was simply that a school with money to burn can go for their little expeditions anywhere, it's not really reportable or newsworthy - except for dog-whistling Murdoch tabloids.

[onetrack]

With the recent conviction of the former ATSIC boss, Geoff Clark, on major theft charges from his local Aboriginal group in Victoria - I wonder if the authorities are now going to go back, and try to find out how much he defrauded ATSIC over the years he was in absolute charge there?

 

Fat chance, I'd say - it won't even be considered - even though Clark has proved himself to be a full-time criminal over many, many years - including rape convictions, as well as fraud and theft. 

The criminals, thieves and fraud merchants are drawn like a magnet to the Aboriginal Industry and its permanent pots of gold with little oversight.

 

It's interesting that Clark was only investigated when a smart detective saw Clark posing with one of Australias top QC's, who was representing him against the rape charges. The detective simply thought about how much this QC was costing on a daily basis, and couldn't figure out how Clark could afford him - and thus started an investigation into the source of his ill-gotten wealth.

[Jerry_Atrick]

My point about the welcome to country tirade from the seantor was it is a bit rich when his party seems to be representative of a religion that equally spreads BS like talking snakes, arks, pparting seas and the like, I think I used the term pot calling the kettle black (i.e. it's not OK for Aborginals to do it, but anyone else and it barely rates a mention).  I wasn't going down the rabbit hole that we have  been down before about the authenticity of the ceremony, but since others have, I will bite

 

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

Jerry, you are not getting it shoved down you neck, day in and day out. Y

Are youy getting it shoved down your throat day in day out? Really. Even if you wer at the game, it is a ceremony and you can totally ignore because it happens about 100m from where you're sitting and you have a crowd around you. Hardly call that shoving itdown your throat. We have things shioved down our throat every day we don't want - ads, religion (yeah - we still get the Wtinesses and others knocking on the door pedalling their crap - a few weeks ago I had and older ocuple thank me for at least teating them courteously). Politicians? Sports? We filter out what we don't want to partake in and get on with life.  When was the last time you were at a Welcome to Country ceremony? And what sort of shit have First Nations people had and continue to have shoved down their throat that in repugnant to them?

 

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

You have to remember that the "welcome to country" gig was invented by, admittedly an Aboriginal person, Ernest Ashley Dingo AM, originating from the Yamatji people of the Murchison region of Western Australia. In 1976 he controversially collaborated with Richard Walley to create a public performance of the "Welcome to Country" ceremony in Perth in 1976, after dancers from the Pacific islands would not perform without one.

I thought we dispelled that myth. You have to remember that Ernie Dingo did not invent Welcome to Country. It has been going for Millenia and different first nations had different rituals for it - not all involving buring gum leaves or whatever. What Ernie Dingo did was perform it for non-First Nations people for the first time (alledgedly): https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/feb/23/ernie-dingo-and-richard-walley-on-the-40th-year-of-their-welcome-to-country

 

And there are a plethora of resources including reputable anthropological studies on it.. Unless, of course, like the good senator, they are all woke fabrications.  Just Google Origins of Welcome to Country. Amazing how myths propagate to fit a collective agenda.

 

7 hours ago, old man emu said:

The ceremony is as divisive as the recent amendment to the Discrimination Act that threw out genetics as the definition of male of female in the application of the provisions of that Act.

It's only divisive by people who want that division - like that senator. Seriously, what impact does it have on the every day lives of Australians? I would suggest its a nice way for them to deflect from real divisive things like their government policy on, oh, I dunno, Robodebt maybe. Or other grave socially divisive policies they have. But lets forget that and worry about an Aboriginal in the middfle of a sports field performing a ceremony to give some sort of social cedibility to the AFL. Yeah.. right.

 

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

"Welcome to Country" ceremonies have turned into a PC money-making exercise for Aboriginals in the right position to exert power over all Govt authorities - and in turn, make the rest of the nation hostage to this basically fabricated, "important tribal heritage", BS ceremony.

I think I have dealt with the fabricated charge. What - do you think the singing of the national anthem at the Grand final is done for free. The singer does it because he or she gets paid handsomely for it. But, that is oK, right? The worlds biggest business untul not so long ago is an institution that is centred on ceremony of BS - the Catholic church.. SO what if they want to capitalise on their rituals? On the national anthem before the Grand Final - I find that a waste of time and don't even like the song. And we get all sorts of BS thrown at us..

 

And can you provide evidence of how a Welcome to Country ceremony influences government policy? If it does, I would not be voting for that government next time.

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

there was no such ceremony as "Welcome to Country" in the Yamatji tribal culture.

and

4 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

There was definitely no "welcome to country" ever in the Alice Springs area. Me and Walter ( the black kid I sat next to in grade 4-5 ) would have known about it for sure.

Maybe  - I can't comment, but given Ernie Dingo claims to be the first person to have performed Welcome to Country in from of non First Nations peoples, it could be that they didn't do it in front of non First Nations peoples so your father (OT) and yourself (BT) didn;t get to see it and there was no need for you to know about it.

 

6 hours ago, spacesailor said:

,object strongly  .

As a father of an " acute asthmatic " .

Any polluting smoke should be banned .

I am also asthmatic but only a litte , when those ' deliberately lit fires are burning,  We have to put ourselves in jail , doors & windows shut tight running an 

' Air-filter  '.

400 people died in Sydney ,after the fire's started 

that huge choking smoke, that put the wife & I into hospital .

I understand where you're coming from, Spacey. So, how many times have you had to close your windows because of a Welcome to Country ceremony? And, of course, if you were at the game, sitting in the stands, that thick smoke would of course have been a threat against, what, all the car and truck fumes, and of course aviation fumes that drive and threaten asthamitcs? Good thing your objections are such that you don't drive your ICE car and lucky you are so dedicated that you keep your aircraft grounded, right? Because they are much more of a threat to asthamitcs than a Welcome to Country ceremony.. And weren't you a smoker? My mother was, and I recall in those days (and many smokers these days) will smoke in confined areas with children. But, these are all non-Aboriginal things, so that is excusable and OK, or do you object to them as wwll.. And the Sydney fires you speak of - were they started by Welcome to Counry ceremonies - of course, each of then involves destroying the country you are being elxomed to. Fair Dinkum, Spacey... what can I say? And, of course, iof you have an ailment that is sensitive to smoke, you don't have to participate.. It isn't a bushfire that they do, after all.