Indigenous Sovereignty Demands

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 minute ago, red750 said:

Then it musst have been edited from the version you watched.

No, I watched it live through watchafl.com.au.. I got up and did something else. As I do on the Grand Final when they sing the national anthem. Doesn't interest me, I do somethmg else. I am not forced to watch it.. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

[red750]

Have it your own way.

[red750]

51 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I am not forced to watch it.. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Thanks for clarifying that. I'm not forced to read your posts, either.

[nomadpete]

Gents, I have already said that the 'ceremony' or the rather commercialised performance of it, is not of itself a big issue to me.

 

Drilling down deeper into this and similar debates, I suspect the real differences of opinion stem from the issue of whether one relies on what they read (research) or on what they know from personal experience.

 

In my case my grandparents and my own experience gained from actual time spent with various aboriginal groups, leads me to differ greatly from the beliefs of those whose opinions are gained from reading relativey recent texts about the people, their culture, from self appointed experts.

 

For instance, how could anthropoligists prove (for instance) that smoking ceremonies or other cultural activities, were existing for any period when there were no records kept by the protagonists?

 

The only alleged evidence is stories passed down by grandad.

 That is not proof.

 

Again I am not particularly denigrating the actual smoking ceremony, which may or may not have mattered to some folk a hundred years ago. Rather the ease with which some are bringing unsubstantiated stuff From past folk stories into modern society.

Edited September 21 by nomadpete

[Jerry_Atrick]

15 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

from self appointed experts.

A little patronising, don't you think calling established academia that have to go through a process of qualification/accreditation and have their work peer reviewed?

 

15 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

In my case my grandparents and my own experience gained from actual time spent with various aboriginal groups,

Ahh.. so not so self appointed experts. .I will quote from Ernie Dingo (as quoted int eh Guardian report):

"Dingo says before that occasion, “We couldn’t do it to white people because they wouldn’t understand, and there was too much negativity.”"

 

I am not sure of your grandparents background, but given that comment, could it not ne that the Aboriginals they frequented with did not dosclose everything about their ceremonies and cultures? What rigour did your grandparents go through to establish the totality of Aboriginal culture?

 

15 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

The only alleged evidence is stories passed down by grandad.

 That is not proof.

I don't know, and I don't think you do, either. Anthoroppologists look for other evidence as well.. documents, drawings, etc. Aboriginals have a rich artistic heritage that captures life. Could it be it "grandad's stories"  are captured in the art.. And because of the lack of documentation/writing, passing knowledge (and dare I say ceremonies, religion, etc) from generation to generation is avery strong part of Aboriginal culture, so even if it was simply grandad saying it, and the previous gandad and the previous one, etc.. and probably also doing it, may (and I stress may) be good enough. And is that not how cultures are evolved over time?

 

The reality is I don't know a lot about it and I go to accepted western expert who studyt it in accordance with accepted western practices as with all other studies to find out..

 

I don't know.. But I doubt your grand parents know.. and your just saying what grandparents passed down. So could that not also be doubtful? In other words why would your grandparents word be better than theirs.. who, you know, are the population we are discussing?

Edited September 21 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 

Why would you want to exclude learning about an aspect of someone's culture..

When I wrote I don't want to consider the spiritual and legal aspects of the culture as I say this. I meant that in what I was writing at the time, I didn't want to introduce those two items to my post a I was more concerned with making the point that non-Aborigines should investigate how the Aborigines managed the land both to promote hunting and to use the various foodstuffs and medicines that we newcomers have no knowledge of. 

 

It is very hard to convey in writing that although I might acknowledge that there are spiritual and legal aspect worth investigating, I didn't want to do so at that point. I had another fish to fry.

 

Mullock:  

Origin of mullock

1350–1400; originally dialectal English; Middle English mullok, equivalent to mul dust, mold, rubbish (compare Old English myl dust; vowel perhaps from Middle English mullen. The earliest known use of the noun mullock is in the Middle English period (1150—1500). OED's earliest evidence for mullock is from around 1390, in the writing of Geoffrey Chaucer, poet and administrator. The word seems to have its most common use in Australian and New Zealand mining Perhaps it arrived here during the mid-19th Century gold rushes in the dialect of people from the English counties to describe rock which contains no gold or from which gold has been extracted. Mullock heap: A mound of left-over soil or rock from the shaft excavation process, usually associated with small-scale or historic gold or opal mining.

 

[spacesailor]

May I quietly make a couple of points ! .

1. " Santa Clause " a genuine (  generosity  ) person who was canonised by the church for feeding staving children in Germany . Saint Clause .

2. I don't object the ' ceremony ' only that " smoke " .

Since  cooks & subsequent European peoples have been here . How many time have the " smoking Ceremony " been recorded before the year of 2000 ! .

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

2 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

. " Santa Clause " a genuine (  generosity  ) person who was canonised by the church for feeding staving children in Germany . Saint Clause .

Sorry - you're right  - I meant father christmas and how Santa Claus is now commonly portrayed.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

The old term “slinging mullock” means criticising or abusing someone. I grew up with it.

[nomadpete]

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

What rigour did your grandparents go through to establish the totality of Aboriginal culture?

My grandmother was raised by a aboriginal nanny. From early childhood, she spent a lot of time with a north Qld mob. To the opint where her daughter (my mother) was also reintroduced to that nanny and the mob. In my mothers recollection it was a great reunion, which shows that it was not some momentary passing connection. My grandmother told me many interesting things that she learned (alongside the other picaninnies). Detail about identifying star groups to navigate, or counting methods or bush remedies,etc.

 

No mention about smoking ceremonies, even when she was present for meetings with other mobs. That isn't proof either way.

 

Basically I challenge academia and their expert peer review process. They cannot crosscheck any verified history of the indigenous cultures. Because unlike most other cultures, there is no written history upon which to base provable conclusions. Very little verifiable proof of such things as smoking ceremonies etc, could exist in archaeological records. There are only the stories passed down through generations. Just because you hear a story more than once, doesn't prove the story. Just like my recollections. And my grandmother's stories only relate to one particular mob from one particular place anyway.

 

My personal experiences only relate to relatively recent times, over maybe 1/4  of Aust. I have known some lovely folk. The culture of today sure isn't the same culture that enabled the aborigines to survive 50,000 years in a hostile land. And it isn't a culture that does too well in the present, either.

[nomadpete]

10 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

The reality is I don't know a lot about it and I go to accepted western expert who studyt it in accordance with accepted western practices as with all other studies to find out..

Therein lies the rub.

 

In matters where there is physical evidence to be studied, that process works fine.

 

But when it comes to recording the minutinae of a bunch of cultures that have no written records to forensically study, I fail to fully trust western experts.

 

Their versions can only be verified by "yeah, I heard that story, too, so it must be true".

 

 Their expert status is primarily labelled as credible by even less knowledgable western people.

 

For me, my grandmother taught me a great respect for the undocumented depth of knowledge that had enabled those peoples to adapt and survive in this country. Not so much respect for some of their morals, but hey, it was a tough life before white fellas came along with their easy tucker and strange laws.

 

[facthunter]

Aborigines in their original tribal context had many very strong laws, ceremonies and initiations. THAT hasn't been replaced with anything.   Nev

[old man emu]

24 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Aborigines in their original tribal context had many very strong laws, ceremonies and initiations. THAT hasn't been replaced with anything.   Nev

I reckon that most of that stuff has been lost for those living east of the Murray-Darling basin. The further from Europeans, the stronger the ancient culture, I'd say. Am I wrong in thinking that?

[facthunter]

I'd say it's lost almost everywhere. It's well documented for all to see near Kakadu. Very informative. There are people there who don't speak a word of english at times. A busload of kids arrived there at  the same time I was there about 8 years ago. Nev

[onetrack]

There's a large cohort of Aboriginals in the communities around Alice Springs and remote communities throughout S.A., N.T. and Northern W.A., who speak very little English and who won't learn a satisfactory level of English.

 

As a result, they're unemployable, and then they get bitterly angry when any relations who have managed to reach a satisfactory level of English, get paying jobs and money to spend.

 

Then they take out their frustration and anger with violent behaviour. It's pretty common to get quantities of rocks thrown at you in these communities whenever you drive in, or even just past a group of them. In towns such as Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing, vehicles are regularly pelted with rocks as they drive through on the highway.

 

One recent episode a woman was seriously injured in her truck by Aboriginal rock-throwers. The police can't catch them generally, because the rock throwers are usually juveniles and fleet of foot.

[spacesailor]

I can ' theoralize ' that the smoking thing could have been a way of saving fire , to pass it on to other people. 

That " smoke " would be a by-product. 

spacesailor

[willedoo]

I don't know if it's changed these days but Hall's Creek in the 1980's had a real rhythm to it based around the fortnightly dole payments. What happened around town was dependent on what stage of the fortnight it was. The fortnight cycle was like watching lungs breathe in and out.

 

There were two liquor outlets, the pub and the liquor store on the other side of town. On dole night, the pub would be cracking with hundreds of locals there drinking, while the liquor store was virtually abandoned. The younger ones would be in the front bar and the entire yard would be full. Older men would sit around in circles in the long grass of the neighbouring allotments. The paddy wagon would be working full time on that night ferrying people to the lockup.

 

This would go on for a few days until the numbers gradually tapered off until there was almost nobody at the pub by the end of the fortnight. The reverse flow of people would be happening at the liquor store. As the money was running out, numbers would increase in the street outside the liquor store. On the last night of the fortnight there would be hundreds in the street outside the liquor store and the next night almost nobody as they'd all be back at the pub. 

 

Alcoholism was a big problem and caused a lot of malnutrition due to people living on packets of chips and twisties. Some of the women were organised. On the first day of the fortnight, they'd do a big shop at the supermarket before the hubby got hold of the money. That way at least they'd have food to last the fortnight. In the early 80's it was still a bit like the wild west, but by the mid 80's things were starting to change.

[nomadpete]

9 hours ago, willedoo said:

but Hall's Creek in the 1980's had a real rhythm to it based around the fortnightly dole payments.

EVERY community that I stayed in, had that cycle. We knew that two days of the fortnight were particularly dangerous. Social security day and the day after.

Furthermore, there was rampant fights halfway through the cycle - failing to pay debts owing to fellow aboriginals who ran exorbitant priced black market grog sales to people who spent their sit down money the first week and drank the lot.

 

A mid cycle carton of beer often sold at mates rates credit for triple the shop price.

 

Rorting was even rife in some 'dry' communities.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Sorry, but I don't agree about "further from europeans means a better culture". Personally, I reckon the abo culture is terrible, especially for the womenfolk. I knew a senior matron from Alice Springs hospital, who told me that abo women regularly show up with horrific injuries inflicted"at home" and they had nobody to complain to. The woke-influenced would tell them that their wonderful culture had been "infected " by whites.

As a young kid, I was actually present at a kangaroo-feast ( at yuendumu)  where the big men of the tribe were surrounded by dogs and women, to whom they would throw their scraps. That the kangaroos were shot with rifles impressed me but I reckon nobody else there.

[nomadpete]

31 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Sorry, but I don't agree about "further from europeans means a better culture". Personally, I reckon the abo culture is terrible, especially for the womenfolk. I knew a senior matron from Alice Springs hospital, who told me that abo women regularly show up with horrific injuries inflicted"at home" and they had nobody to complain to. The woke-influenced would tell them that their wonderful culture had been "infected " by whites.

As a young kid, I was actually present at a kangaroo-feast ( at yuendumu)  where the big men of the tribe were surrounded by dogs and women, to whom they would throw their scraps. That the kangaroos were shot with rifles impressed me but I reckon nobody else there.

That aligns with what I saw of the aboriginal cultural norm, especially in outlying communities.

 

Yuendumu is a glaring example, and as far as I can see, hasn't improved. After reading about the Yuendumu doors (art) from lare 1980's, I visited it in 2000 and 2023. Always a dreadful place.

 

[spacesailor]

I , just don't like the idea of that culture running this country, so I vote No sovereignty. no divided country .

It never worked in Ireland. 

spacesailor

[facthunter]

It's 2 Christian Cults in Ireland. Not a good comparison.  Nev

[willedoo]

I've never been into Yuendumu, only driven past it on the way to W.A. across the Tanami. Have been into Papunya and Kintore in the Territory and Balgo and Yagga Yagga in W.A.. Kintore was a bit rough around the edges. Coming back through Papunya you could really see the difference between the two. Papunya was relatively clean from a rubbish perspective and the people were generally a lot better dressed and seemed to have a much better grip on hygiene.

 

Balgo in W.A. always had a bad reputation but I don't know what it's like these days. We stayed a night in the priest's quarters back in the day when it was still a church mission. Yagga Yagga was a very small community  in the Great Sandy south of Balgo. It wasn't very old when we worked near there for a few weeks in 1985. It had a sad history after that. The intention of it was good, but eventually different groups moved there and infighting and politics brought it down. It's abandoned now but as far as I know, some of the traditional owners go out there and do some maintenance with the hope of returning some day.

[willedoo]

23 hours ago, old man emu said:

I reckon that most of that stuff has been lost for those living east of the Murray-Darling basin. The further from Europeans, the stronger the ancient culture, I'd say. Am I wrong in thinking that?

It's probably correct to a certain degree. Language is definitely stronger the more remote you go. Toward the coast most original culture and language has been lost. Some are trying to resurrect some of it if there's an old auntie or uncle who remembers some of the things their grandparents told them. I think some on the coast are making up new stuff as the old ways are lost forever.

 

In the remote areas I think it would vary from place to place. Some communities are big melting pots of different groups and if they've been that way for a long time, culture might be a lot weaker than other places with mainly one tribal group.

 

I remember once listening to an anthropologist tell of the years he spent living with and studying the Pintubi people. He had a theory of different waves of migration into the country (I agree on that one) and how the earlier people graduated inland as others arrived. He had a map of Australia with an overlay of concentric circles denoting different zones. His theory was that the closer to the centre people were, the more ancient spiritual knowledge they had. He believed the Pintubi were at the apex of this. I worked on Pintubi land for a short time and only travelled through Kintore so never spent time with the people, but from that brief experience I didn't see any of the cultural stuff. When we were there in 2010, we were told some of the people occasionally went walkabout out in the desert and that at that time a family was somewhere out there on walkabout.

[willedoo]

From a cultural perspective, Kintore is a community of predominantly Pintubi people. There's a small number of Warlpiri and Luritja people from neighbouring areas but it would be a lot easier for the Pintubi to maintain culture than those in large mixed communities.