Unexpected consequences of knee-jerk laws.

[old man emu]

Laws are made to stop wrong-doing, but sometimes an apparently good law has unexpected consequences that stop something that is not wrong.

 

As a result of the commencement of the Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures), it is now unlawful to perform the Nazi salute in public or to publicly display, or trade in, Nazi hate symbols, from Monday, 8 January 2024. This is the first legislation of its kind and will ensure no one in Australia will be allowed to glorify or profit from acts and symbols that celebrate the Nazis and their evil ideology.

 

While the rise of neo-nazism is something to be strongly opposed, along with other radical -isms from the extremes of both Leftist and Rightist ends of the political distribution, the wording of the legislation has unexpected consequences in certain otherwise legitimate areas. 

 

I copied this photograph from this educational site  https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2016/04/30/australian-war-memorial-messerschmitt-me-262-black-x/ 

You will notice that I have erased the swastika from the tailfin so that I do not commit a crime. However, as it stands today, the owner of the website is committing a crime because the symbol is still visible on the aircraft on the website page. That constitutes "displaying". Here is that symbol in a picture I found today on the Australian War Memorial site  https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C111579

You know what I erased.

 

Do you like to build scale models of ships? Probably not if you are on an aviation page, but see what manufacturer's have had to do to the paint scheme information of a kit for the Bismarck

Notice the white circles on the fore and aft decks. In life, those circles contained contained the swastika which was a component of that flag. I have also noticed in other scale model kits of German military equipment that the decals for the swastika now come as two pieces because making a decal with the swastika complete is an offence. What if you want to enter a model of a WWII German military item in a competition where the model will be displayed? Sorry, swastikas not allowed.

 

Unrestricted international commercial trade in 'new' ivory is banned by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES). However if the item made from the ivory can be dated prior to 1949 (?) it can be traded. Applying this to WWII German militaria, it should be possible to create a permit system whereby persons engaged in collecting such memorabilia, or facilitating its collection can do so. Afterall, the government doesn't seem to be reluctant to create permits that make us ASIC as a dog.

[nomadpete]

Sad to see. Our legislators often appear to be incompetant when attempting to convert good intentions into robust meaningful laws.

[old man emu]

Thankfully, a law can be amended to eliminate the problems it might unintentionally cause. Just remember that if you had a relative who brought back a souvenir of time battling in North Africa or Europe, keep it in the bottom of the wardrobe where it has probably lain for 50 years or more.

[Marty_d]

I believe there are exceptions for valid historical discussion etc so you won't get into trouble for showing aircraft or ships with the symbol on them.  (Caveat emptor, there).

 

More importantly, our entire karate class could get in the shit if anyone saw us practicing ridge hand strikes.

[octave]

https://www.vic.gov.au/fact-sheet-nazi-symbol-prohibition

 

 

4. Are there any exceptions?

There are several exceptions to the offence, recognising that Nazi symbols and gestures may be displayed or performed for genuine purposes.

A person is not committing an offence if they display or perform a Nazi symbol or gesture reasonably and in good faith:

for a genuine academic, artistic, educational, or scientific purpose, or
in making or publishing a fair and accurate report of any event or matter of public interest.

For example, where a person performs the Nazi salute within a theatre performance, or where a teacher shows a film in which the SS symbol can be seen as part of a history class.

People also are not committing an offence if they display:

• a Nazi symbol for genuine cultural or religious purposes. This ensures certain religions can continue to use the sacred swastika.
• either a Nazi symbol or gesture in opposition to Nazism or related ideologies.

For example, a person who displays a flag of Nazi Germany with a marking through it, or a person who displays the pink triangle used by LGBTIQ+ communities.
Tattoos of Nazi symbols or gestures are not covered by the ban.

There are also exceptions for law enforcement or administration of justice purposes.

Edited February 5 by octave

[facthunter]

When I last visited this topic there were plenty of suitable exemptions. I'm not worried about how it currently exists and  have amendments where needed..   nev

[spacesailor]

Can we get that " BlackPower " salute  onto the hate register  too .

I hate it .

So it should be on the hate register. 

spacesailor

 

[old man emu]

I suppose that the whole thing could have been made quite succinct by making it an offence to

 

"Use an object, being and an object or symbol approved by, and created contemporaneously with the existence of, the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, or any replica of such an object or symbol created after 7th May 1945, in a manner, or in circumstances, likely to cause a Breach of the Peace.

 

I had to put in "approved by" to eliminate all other things created contemporaneously with the NSDAP, such as political or military material of all other countries.

 

All that needs then is a definition of "use", which can cover a multitude of sins.

[octave]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

You will notice that I have erased the swastika from the tailfin so that I do not commit a crime. However, as it stands today, the owner of the website is committing a crime because the symbol is still visible on the aircraft on the website page. That constitutes "displaying". Here is that symbol in a picture I found today on the Australian War Memorial site  https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C111579

 

 

I am a bit confused by this  How would this be a crime?   I am not not a lawyer but my lay reading of the legislation seems to make it clear that this would not be a crime.  

 

Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures) Bill 2023

 

There are exemptions for a display that is made reasonably and in good faith for a genuine academic, artistic, religious or scientific purpose; or for a genuine cultural or educational purpose; or in making or publishing a fair and accurate report of any event or matter of public interest; or in opposition to fascism, Nazism, neo-Nazism or other related ideologies. Tattoos and the like are also exempt.

 

 

[willedoo]

I think it's only designed to stop neo-Nazis goosestepping all over the place. The way I understand it, militaria collectors/sellers at fairs can still display Nazi items for sale or display if it's in the right context. On the other hand, if you wanted to fly the Nazi flag in your front yard, you would have to prove it's eligible for exemption which would be hard to do.

[willedoo]

It's a bit like the knife laws here. It's not illegal to carry a knife in public, but it's illegal to carry a knife in public without reasonable excuse. A farmer with a pocket knife vs a youth gang with machetes. It's the police officer's call.

[facthunter]

Too many knives being carried these days. Be good if that could be rectified. Nev

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, octave said:

I am a bit confused by this  How would this be a crime?   I am not not a lawyer but my lay reading of the legislation seems to make it clear that this would not be a crime.  

It is confusing.It's hard to find the list of exemptions in the Commonwealth Act, but no doubt they are similar to those of the States which in general are for a display that is made reasonably and in good faith for a genuine academic, artistic, religious or scientific purpose; or for a genuine cultural or educational purpose; or in making or publishing a fair and accurate report of any event or matter of public interest; or in opposition to fascism, Nazism, neo-Nazism or other related ideologies. 

 

However, the Commonwealth law makes it an offence to undertake any trade in these items. In other words a person cannot make a financial or other benefit from exchanging these items with another person. That means that collecting these items for personal interest, but not putting them before the public is banned.

[octave]

There is a list on page 11 of the federal legislation.  This seems to accord with state legislation. Again I am not a lawyer or particularly knowledgeable in this area but it seems to me that model makers and military museums can relax.

 

 

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/bills/r7048_first-reps/toc_pdf/23077b01.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf   

   

 

 

(9) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(d), this subsection applies if a 22 reasonable person would consider that: 23 (a) the conduct mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) is engaged in for a 24 purpose that is: 25 (i) a religious, academic, educational, artistic, literary or 26 scientific purpose; and 27 (ii) not contrary to the public interest; or 28 (b) the conduct mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) is engaged in for 29 the purposes of making a news report, or a current affairs 30 report, that: 31 (i) is in the public interest; and 32 (ii) is made by a person working in a professional capacity 33 as a journalist.

[spacesailor]

lets just ban '' German made '' .

No more Opal bombs . Similar to '' Lucas electrical & Leyland '' cars .

spacesailor

[onetrack]

I fail to understand why Nazi tattoos aren't banned. That'd be the first thing a neo-Nazi would want to display.

[old man emu]

I suppose the reason would be that the removal of a tattoo of any kind by a person other than the person upon whose body the tattoo is, is technically and "assault". You can have a lawful assault - a tackle in football; a hug or kiss - if the recipient consents to those sort of things. However, without the recipient's consent, they become an unlawful assault. In a round about way, if a Law requires the removal of a tattoo that could be taken as the lawmakers directing an unlawful assault, and when the direction comes from the government as the result of a law, it could be taken as a form of punishment.

 

There's probably something the the Bill of Human Rights that says that a person can decorate their body as they please.

 

The law, of course could make a person cover the tattoo while in a public place.

[old man emu]

Here's a conundrum for philatatists: Is it now illegal to trade Nazi era postage stamps? 

 

 

[willedoo]

On 05/02/2024 at 6:20 PM, old man emu said:

However, the Commonwealth law makes it an offence to undertake any trade in these items. In other words a person cannot make a financial or other benefit from exchanging these items with another person. That means that collecting these items for personal interest, but not putting them before the public is banned.

ome, my guess would be that any Commonwealth law would only cover areas over which it has jurisdiction. Customs for example. Federal law can ban the import of items that are totally legal to possess in the states. Could it be that it would be unlawful to import or export Nazi memorabilia but still legal to trade those items in the states under their state legislation.

 

Here's an example of the point I'm trying to make. As far as I know, in most states it's perfectly legal to go to a toy shop and buy a water pistol. It's also legal to possess a water pistol in those states. However it's not legal to import a water pistol into the country without a permit as it's deemed an imitation firearm by Customs. If you buy a water pistol from overseas, Customs will impound it and only release it if you have obtained a permit to acquire from the state police predating the date the item arrived in the country.