Uses for the Submarines

[Bruce]

Apart from the jobs generated, can anybody tell me what possible use the submarines can be?

 

What scenario are they thinking of? Attack by the Indonesians? The Chinese?

 

I know that the best weapons of ww2 were submarines and I have read that the military are always a war behind in their armament ideas. But surely these days submarines are easy targets for computer-guided torpedoes.

 

Imagine a torpedo that just sat awash for hours or days listening until the right acoustic signature arrived and then it homes in on that target. You could drop these torpedoes off from ships or planes and have hundreds in wait for any submarines. The computers in the torpedoes would be less than the wife's Ipad.

 

If this is right, then the submarines are only good against third-world countries which can't afford decent torpedoes . But are these countries really a threat?

 

So if the military use is not there, the jobs are the reason for wanting them.

 

But the jobs are real expensive.. more than a million dollars per job per year.

 

I've not seen any discussion in the media. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. Maybe people feel better if they spend 50 billion on submarines the military say they want, and maybe its unpatriotic to wonder what they might be good for.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well I think it's a bit like a lot of military equipment, just having it can actually prevent the need to use it.

 

As for the torpedo idea, it would work but then surely a counter torpedo device wouldn't be too hard to put together as well?

 

It's all a bit of tit for tat and we could logically argue the pros and cons for pages but at the end of the day war isn't very logical so the more defence gear we have the better:big gun:

 

 

[dazza 38]

Submarines are used for covert and overt operations, surveillance and information gathering as well deploying special forces troops in a covert manner.

 

Plus a Navy which doesnt have its own subs protecting their own fleet are sitting ducks to the enemies submarines.

 

Oh, and if you're ever stuck on on the "Lost" island, it is a good way to get off the island.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I agree fully Bruce - it's a total waste of money as far as I can see.

 

The US subs have a valid purpose as they're the last line of defence. Basically their job is to get lost in the ocean somewhere and, on command, launch nuclear missiles to obliterate the target country de jour.

 

As far as I know we don't have nuclear weapons and we don't hate anyone enough to wipe them out in any case. I'd also hazard a guess that our existing F/A18F's can carry some bitching big ship-busting missiles.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

If the major tangible benefit of buying new submarines is the jobs generated, then why buy off the shelf? Let's build our own and employ local people, protect and develop local expertise.

 

Not so long ago Australia produced the world's cheapest steel, and much of our manufacturing sector was dependent on that industry. Now what's left of our steel industry seems about to collapse. Clever.

 

 

[dazza 38]

If the major tangible benefit of buying new submarines is the jobs generated, then why buy off the shelf? Let's build our own and employ local people, protect and develop local expertise.Not so long ago Australia produced the world's cheapest steel, and much of our manufacturing sector was dependent on that industry. Now what's left of our steel industry seems about to collapse. Clever.

The last time we built our own subs, they turned out to be crap.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The last time we built our own subs, they turned out to be crap.

So let's give up?

 

That was a very expensive lesson so why not get some benefit out of it? Learn from our mistakes and improve.

 

Anyhow, there are plenty of reports that after many of the problems were ironed out the Collins turned out to be pretty damned good. Many new weapons systems have teething problems and generate lots of media controversy. We lived thru years of headlines about problems with the F-111. After it was finally delivered it proved to be an excellent aircraft.

 

 

[M61A1]

Buying elsewhere would be the logical outcome of learning from our mistakes about manufacturing here....

 

 

[Kiwi303]

Those loitering torpedos already exist.

 

There's a sea bottom mine which is a large battery acting as the weight/anchor for a encapsulated small torpedo, Ship comes by that meets the target criteria, instead of exploding like an old mine, it releases the torpedo.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Buying elsewhere would be the logical outcome of learning from our mistakes about manufacturing here....

...so will our children all be flipping burgers and caring for doddery old fools in retirement homes?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

the yanks have already developed a flying torpedo, air to sea or sea to air. A slow moving target like a non-nuclear sub would be an easy target. I was reading a book on cold war submarine technology, in the 1950s the yanks covered the north sea and parts of the Atlantic in acoustic listening devices to track Russian submarines leaving the Baltic sea. Submarine warfare is very expensive as its measure versus counter measure with only the US, Russia and the yanks able to justify the spend.

 

These Adelaide built submarines aren't really effective counter measure against anything.

 

If you want to read a good book on fighting a submarine war, Iron Coffins by Herbert Werner will have you on the edge of your seat. Another one worth reading is The Japanese Submarine Force and WW2 by Carl Boyd, it details how badly the Japanese managed their submarine force.

 

 

[M61A1]

...so will our children all be flipping burgers and caring for doddery old fools in retirement homes?

Be sure to write a thankyou note to our wonderful unions.

 

 

[M61A1]

Those loitering torpedos already exist.

There's a sea bottom mine which is a large battery acting as the weight/anchor for a encapsulated small torpedo, Ship comes by that meets the target criteria, instead of exploding like an old mine, it releases the torpedo.

Yep, been around for years.

 

the yanks have already developed a flying torpedo, air to sea or sea to air.

.

Yes, we had the Ikara years ago too

 

 

[fly_tornado]

hang on, isn't your job is protected by a union award?

 

 

[M61A1]

hang on, isn't your job is protected by a union award?

Nope.....and personally, I did much better out of individual (where better workers get paid more than slackards) agreements than enterprise bargaining.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

there is nothing stopping you walking out the door mick, just no one is willing to pay what you think you are worth.

 

 

[M61A1]

there is nothing stopping you walking out the door mick, just no one is willing to pay what you think you are worth.

Who said I wasn't happy with what I have right now? I was a party to my negotiations....no unions involved.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The basic test for a valid EBA is that you can be no worse off than under the award. those awards come from unions.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I agree that without unions we'd have a lot more manufacturing here. With workers living on the poverty line.

 

It's not an either/or game. We need to aim at what we're good at... science, agriculture, design, education, tourism, hospitality, innovation. We'll never be competitive at punching out millions of the same item on an assembly line, but then again, are those the sort of jobs people want?

 

 

[M61A1]

I agree that without unions we'd have a lot more manufacturing here. With workers living on the poverty line.

It's not an either/or game. We need to aim at what we're good at... science, agriculture, design, education, tourism, hospitality, innovation. We'll never be competitive at punching out millions of the same item on an assembly line, but then again, are those the sort of jobs people want?

The problem with our unions is that much like our politicians, they're not in it for the good of the people, but to line their own pockets. They're called unions but they're not really.

 

The basic test for a valid EBA is that you can be no worse off than under the award. those awards come from unions.

It's not hard to be better off than any union negotiated award.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

this is why you should start Mick's helo and aircraft repair, think of that shiny new 582 you could have in your shed right now!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

I agree that without unions we'd have a lot more manufacturing here. With workers living on the poverty line.

You did catch up that Bill Shortens union has been negotiating deals to lower worker wages whilst the union gets a fanancial kickback? Oh well the whole union premise is to boost the wages of a small number at the expense of the most, so I guess that is what they were doing. Not sure if the dole is regarded as technically above the poverty line?

 

 

[dazza 38]

Unions are really good at preventing slacktards from getting sacked because they make the lazy arses site union representatives.

 

 

[M61A1]

this is why you should start Mick's helo and aircraft repair, think of that shiny new 582 you could have in your shed right now!

Too much effort for too little reward. The market is saturated enough without me.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Unions are really good at preventing slacktards from getting sacked because they make the lazy arses site union representatives.

how many times have they saved you from the sack and you not known it?