VERY OFF TOPIC. . . Immigration in Europe. .

[fly_tornado]

Ignorance is strength

 

 

[nomadpete]

Marty, I take your point. But are you suggesting, in a round about way, that society must pretend to be nice to all people, whilst trusting 'authorities' secretly carry out surveillance on some sections of society in order to identify and control the higher risk posed by an isolated few individuals of that group?

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Marty, I take your point. But are you suggesting, in a round about way, that society must pretend to be nice to all people, whilst trusting 'authorities' secretly carry out surveillance on some sections of society in order to identify and control the higher risk posed by an isolated few individuals of that group?

Isn't that what's been happening since 11/9/2001?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

a lot of people are making a lot of money

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Follow the money trail. Sellers of arms must be about the worst people on the earth. Complex expensive stuff designed to blow people to pieces and render countryside unable to be lived in for decades.

 

I have always found it somewhat incredible that a cartoon is offensive and public beheadings or burning a pilot alive in a cage is akin to a sport because they don't believe the popular view . What sort of person would wish to live in a world like that? Nev

 

 

[eightyknots]

GNu showing compassion for anyone

Yes, it appears he certainly did. Here is the proof:

 

Personally I feel for the families that have lost innocent loved ones, butchered and torn in an instant and those that are left seriously injured and traumatized, many of whom may never fully recover. Can't find so much sympathy for the feelings of perpetrators, sympathisers and enablers.

[Ultralights]

speaking of ignorance, apparently, there is no where in the koran that approves of suicide, you take your own life, your going to hell with the infidels... Suicide bombing began with Al qaeda, and have been the weapon of choice for jihadis ever since.. so to me, says that those who commit these atrocities, have no actual idea of the religion they are killing and dying for, but are doing it as their religious teachers have been telling them this is what they have to do... funny how their usually always young men, easily influenced and brainwashed..

 

ISIS is trying to build up racism in the west with these actions. Every time they hear a redneck politician or radio jock screaming against "muslims" is another victory for ISIS. The more they successfully get "middle white [insert country]" to demand retribution against muslims and create divisions in western societies the more ISIS celebrates. They don't want a conventional "war" they want massive civil upheaval and use that to recruit those that feel vilified as they feel they are given no other course of action. Every shock jock slandering the broader muslim community is actually doing ISIS's work for them but they are too redneck to realise it.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

If you remember back to the 1970-80s there where a lot of unscrupulous Indian gurus exploiting westerners, usually turning the followers in slaves or exploiting rich followers for financial gain. Many of these gurus based their beliefs of corruptions of Hindu, yet I never remember Hindus being asked to denounce the actions of the rogue operators.

 

I remember there where some crazy christian religions running around, and yet we never ask the pope to denounce them.

 

Do you remember Jim Jones? He killed 300 children and ruined countless lives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

 

 

[Marty_d]

Marty, I take your point. But are you suggesting, in a round about way, that society must pretend to be nice to all people, whilst trusting 'authorities' secretly carry out surveillance on some sections of society in order to identify and control the higher risk posed by an isolated few individuals of that group?

Well, if we're only pretending to be nice to all people now, then yes we should continue - but I would have thought we would actually be nice to all people.

 

As to the surveillance, if there is a credible belief that a certain mosque was being used by radical imams to recruit young people to do illegal things, then I can't see the problem with muslim officers attending prayers to collect evidence and present the case for prosecution. Just like if there was credible belief that one or more teachers in a catholic school were grooming and abusing children, I wouldn't see a problem with police (with a warrant) tapping their phones, carrying out surveillance and collecting evidence.

 

speaking of ignorance, apparently, there is no where in the koran that approves of suicide, you take your own life, your going to hell with the infidels... Suicide bombing began with Al qaeda, and have been the weapon of choice for jihadis ever since.. so to me, says that those who commit these atrocities, have no actual idea of the religion they are killing and dying for, but are doing it as their religious teachers have been telling them this is what they have to do... funny how their usually always young men, easily influenced and brainwashed..

ISIS is trying to build up racism in the west with these actions. Every time they hear a redneck politician or radio jock screaming against "muslims" is another victory for ISIS. The more they successfully get "middle white [insert country]" to demand retribution against muslims and create divisions in western societies the more ISIS celebrates. They don't want a conventional "war" they want massive civil upheaval and use that to recruit those that feel vilified as they feel they are given no other course of action. Every shock jock slandering the broader muslim community is actually doing ISIS's work for them but they are too redneck to realise it.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

 

[Bruce]

We have to fight these guys much smarter than we look like we are going to. I agree with Marty in that stupid and heavy-handed actions will make more new recruits than we weed out.

 

The only sense you can make of the Paris thing is that it is a recruiting exercise. If only one Moslem in every thousand is radicalized as a result of what is going to happen there then they will get 6000 new recruits.

 

Mind you, they might be as silly as us in the west. We have done lots of things thinking that a show of strength will cause the other side to back down, when it has just the opposite effect.

 

Surely we could fight them smarter, for example by targeting their weapons, giving huge rewards and new identities to those who report caches of weapons. You could make your average weapons smuggler into a loyal but stupid mug if he doesn't dob his mates in.

 

I would go top down too, once you have a weapon then the manufacturer of that weapon would be in my sights.

 

Alas, I think our authorities are going to do the stupid recruiting thing. After all, they are the same lot who brought them in to begin with. We should hold our MP's responsible for them even being here.

 

 

[eightyknots]

I dont want to give credit to any racism or fuel any debate aimed at an entire religion...I find racism and sexism etc funny in jokes, but not at all when its meant to hurt or harm or stigmatize.

But a few things are clear... we cant go down the current path where we have racist Australians labeling peaceful muslims as bad or evil...and we cant bury our heads in the sand and say its not a predominantly muslim problem...We will need muslims on board to solve this issue..

 

I have as strong a views as anyone on what we should do to extremists and in light of much stricter rules for immigration and refugee status. I would even go so far as to say that anyone who does not accept Australian way of life should be deported to place of origin .

 

But my real point is we will only fan the flames of racism and hatred if we are not careful to make peace loving muslims feel 100% embraced, loved and welcome in Australia. They are probably more horrified by what is happening, simply because they are sensible peaceful people as well, in Syria their fellow muslims are being slaughtered by all sides and they know the backlash from France will make them victims in Australia by racist white supremacists and the ill informed morons that abound..

 

I feel for the majority peace loving muslims every time this crap happens...they get labeled, harassed and stigmatized... and they hate this crap as much as we do, if not more.

I think it is important not to mix up race and religion. You may have a Christian Syrian and a Muslim Syrian, A Christian Lebanese and a Muslim Lebanese, A Christian Pakistani and a Muslim Pakistani. Both Syrians look the same racially; the same with the two hypothetical Lebanese and ditto the two Pakistani people mentioned in my example. But their religion is different. Please, Australia, do not target people because of their perceived race just because a number of redneck Muslims perpetrate atrocities.

 

 

[Bruce]

My insight into religion came when I discovered computer viruses. That's what a religion is, its a software virus of the brain.

 

Now just as with computer viruses, some are worse than others and we should quarantine the very worst .

 

Alas, we are paying for schools dedicated to infecting kids with the worst form of this virus.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I think it is important not to mix up race and religion. You may have a Christian Syrian and a Muslim Syrian, A Christian Lebanese and a Muslim Lebanese, A Christian Pakistani and a Muslim Pakistani. Both Syrians look the same racially; the same with the two hypothetical Lebanese and ditto the two Pakistani people mentioned in my example. But their religion is different. Please, Australia, do not target people because of their perceived race because a number of redneck Muslims perpetrate atrocities.

What you say makes sense...but the religion is not the defining problem...the interpretation and action of that religion as either extreme or moderate, mild is what counts... Dont forget there are plenty of nut job very violent Catholics and other religions as well...so we must be careful not to target the religion, but rather target the nut jobs...

 

Im all for targeting them and eliminating them from the planet...but not for targeting the 98%+ peace loving muslims

 

 

[DrZoos]

Follow the money trail. Sellers of arms must be about the worst people on the earth. Complex expensive stuff designed to blow people to pieces and render countryside unable to be lived in for decades.I have always found it somewhat incredible that a cartoon is offensive and public beheadings or burning a pilot alive in a cage is akin to a sport because they don't believe the popular view . What sort of person would wish to live in a world like that? Nev

We need for about 5 years to get HP , Epson , Lexmark and Dell to supply the weapons...they will get rid of the old weapons for the new shiny weapons and then...hahha...suckers.......by 2020..all weapons will have reached their fictitious print limit and become non functional.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

speaking of ignorance, apparently, there is no where in the koran that approves of suicide, you take your own life, your going to hell with the infidels...

You may be thinking of this verse: Qur'an (17:33) "And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right"

 

But please note these are not suicide bombers (a media term) they are homicide bombers. Killing non-Moslems in jihad is not only endorsed in the Koran but is actually the only way a Moslem can be assured he will definitely go to paradise.

 

Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth" And many others..... there are at least 190 verses calling for Moslems to kill non-Moslems. Here is another: Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

 

There has been instances where the bomber accidentally blew themselves up without killing non-Moslems and Islamic leaders have ruled that this doesn't count and thus the bomber cannot be assured of paradise as he didn't kill anyone else. (I don't use the term infidel as Moslems themselves are infidels of course so this causes confusion; neither are these murderers martyrs as this word has the exact opposite meaning).

 

This would be comical if it were not real:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RufkwhdW6L4

 

 

[Ultralights]

but also, by their own book, death by your own hand is a burn in hell offence.

 

 

[DrZoos]

These are not suicide bombers (a media term) they are homicide bombers. Killing non-Moslems in jihad is not only endorsed in the Koran but is actually the only way a Moslem can be assured he will definitely go to paradise.

Please quote reputable sources where homicide is included in the Quran not "Koran"...If you're going to slag a whole religion of billions of people at least learn how to spell the book and religion....killing of anyone for any reason other than accidental death is actually STRICTLY prohibited...and promoted as such by mainstream muslims...

 

Disclaimer...i am not muslim..dont know intimately a single muslim, dont want to be a muslim...but feel for them in this horrible time where crazy homicidal maniacs are making them all victims, buy committing horrendous acts and claiming its due to their beliefs...I have actually studied basics on each religion at university level...not because i wanted to, but because i had to as part of my former job

 

Its extremely disappointing the Grand Mufti did not take the opportunity to attack such barbaric acts...but again..just like Tony Abbott, Juliar and Kevin were not great leaders... perhaps ??? he is not up to the job ???

 

Just as there a literally millions of motorcycle riders including us, imaging if all motor cyclists where tarred with the same brush as the bad few that run criminal gangs. Or if all pilots where smeared because the MH pilot went rogue...

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Please quote reputable sources where homicide is included in the Quran not "Koran"...

I prefer to use the 'Koran' spelling. You can read many of the relevant verses here. Remember the rule of abrogation applies to the Koran - chronologically older verses cancel any conflicting earlier verses (the earlier ones generally being more peaceful); also note the book itself is not in chronological order.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I prefer to use the 'Koran' spelling. You can read many of the relevant verses here. Remember the rule of abrogation applies to the Koran - chronologically older verses cancel any conflicting earlier verses (the earlier ones generally being more peaceful); also note the book itself is not in chronological order.

Then if you have "acutally really" read anything on it you will know these maniacs absolutely do not represent the Muslim VAST majority and their beliefs!!

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Then if you have "acutally really" read anything on it you will know these maniacs absolutely do not represent the Muslim VAST majority and their beliefs!!

The 'maniacs' are not maniacs at all, they are faithful followers of Mohammad and students of the Koran. Read it for yourself. Thankfully for us the great majority of Moslems aren't such faithful followers. Many of the terrorist leaders have impeccable Islamic credentials and have memorised the entire Koran eg ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has a BA, MA and PhD in Islamic studies, these are not ignorant goat herders - they know their faith and the 98% stay silent for this reason. That's why it is such a joke when weak western leaders bleat "this is not true Islam" after every attack.

 

 

[willedoo]

I would think that the many causes of the current problem will be debated for years. But the reality is that the Genie has been let out of the bottle and the question is how to get at least a large proportion of it back in.

 

All the past causes, at best, can only help us to not make the same mistakes in the future. To go forward from here, how do we deal with what is now very asymmetric warfare? Maybe Australia, in the military sense, knows it's limitations and has developed a niche to fit in with our major partner in all things war. But our major partner has always relied on blind self belief and the doctrine of overwhelming fire power. That didn't work in Vietnam and will only ever again work against some unprepared, underpowered third world country. So they are at the crossroads. Their whole plan doesn't fit modern day realities, and they are years behind in the art of asymmetric warfare and how to respond to it.

 

Other countries, particularly Russia and China (the only real opposition) realised many years ago that they could never defeat the U.S. one on one. In the case of the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation, and more recently China, the entire military is organized as a very large asymmetric warfare force. Strike hard where it hurts, withdraw and stay a highly mobile, small target. That's why no-one really has any interest in fighting them, as the damage would be too great. A recent example is the state of shock in the U.S. Administration and Pentagon at the speed at which the RF could mobilize small but very effective forces very quickly.

 

Further down the pecking order, we now have highly organized, well armed and funded, non state warriors waging a new type of asymmetric warfare on the population at large. So how do we defeat them? Whatever the answer, we can't be dumb about it.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Then if you have "acutally really" read anything on it you will know these maniacs absolutely do not represent the Muslim VAST majority and their beliefs!!

Patently not true. About 85% of Musilms are Sunni's who hold exactly the same beliefs regardless if they act upon them (radicals) or not (moderates), worse still, they hold strict beliefs according to and will act upon the word of God without any binding of human reasoning. The Shia have problems with the Sunni mostly because they actually use some human reasoning sometimes in political decisions over the "true word".

 

Here's a chance for you to prove me wrong though, very simple task, for example our very own "Atheist Knowledge" thread; it's full of Christians, Catholics, Atheists and other Denominations poking barbs and fun at each other, even serious sometimes, but you know that we would all stand around a fire having a sausage and beer with each other civilly in real life - even continuing the barbs.

 

Here's your simple task, go find a bunch of Muslims doing that to each other ....

 

Here's some of my own examples, there's a Muslim lamb restaurant in Chengdu near me that cooks and sells bread and lamb skewers from a clay oven outside. I would grab 6 skewers and a round bread, about 300mm diameter, straight from the oven throw them together for the best lamb sandwich you've ever tasted in your life, about 2 times a week. Over the years I got friendly with the seller, big smiles and "hello!s" etc ... until the day he asked me my religion, holy smoke, if looks could kill, literally, when I said "none". Never served nor spoke to me again or would even look at me when I walked past.

 

I read an active thread recently on Facebook where a bunch of Muslims were going off at the Australians over the "racist" cultural comments etc over that guy who shot dead a police services man and got killed himself in Sydney, I asked (politely) if any of the Muslims there would condemn the man over his actions - not one of those Muslims posted again.

 

I also had a police tape of 105 Han Chinese being killed by Muslims by hand, rocks, pipes, bricks in Xing Jiang Province, leaves a lasting impression when you see a 20 year old girl dragged from her car and beaten to death by 5 guys - besides the others of course. There is a lot of bombings and stuff you guys don't know about in China by Muslims because the Western media wouldn't report it but especially lots of unarmed police get killed every year, especially in Xing Jiang.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

China (the only real opposition) realised many years ago that they could never defeat the U.S. one on one. and more recently China, .

China? Which China are you referring to, shirley not the China that has never attacked another country in history?

 

China wants nothing to do with this shite, only America has constantly bleated on about the big red threat (whatever) to make you think there's some issue. Most Chinese are baffled by it, have no idea what it's all about and just want others to "Fx off" and leave them alone to their own business - which apparently America finds impossible to do.

 

I would put Russia not so far from that attitude as well.

 

Apparently America needs a constant threat possibly to make a lot of Arms Manufacturers, Politicians and Generals filthy rich, that's all I can think of, thank goodness for Israel.

 

Shameful that many Americans are still homeless after Hurricane Katrina 10 years ago, a bill that could have been covered by a month's Miltary budget.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Iraqi born Faisal Saeed Al Mutar has a funny fb post about this:

 

It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.

 

It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

 

"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

 

"No you didn't."

 

"Wait, what? Yes we did..."

 

"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

 

"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

 

"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

 

"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."

 

"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."

 

"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"

 

"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."

 

"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."

 

"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."

 

"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"

 

[Phil Perry]

Well it didn't take the political "Toonists" at Charlie Hebdo long to react, as I fully expected that they would. . . . . .

 

[ATTACH]47751._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

I'm not going to translate this fully, as it has a naughty word in it ( ! )

 

But basically it's saying "You've got the weapons. . . ."

 

But We've got the ******* Champagne ! ! !

 

Classic Charlie. . .!

 

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