spacesailor Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) Baning the ' ICE ' Car . is Happening in lots of major cities . Touting pollution . As well as dearer registration, or a special toll to drive into ( the city ) to see the Tourist sites . spacesailor Edited May 27 by spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) Poor salesperson. What an elegant cop out you suggest. You might wear your cardigan out patting yourself on the back.. You're scared you might like it... I won't tell anybody about it. Nev Edited May 27 by facthunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 48 minutes ago, facthunter said: What an elegant cop out you suggest. That's a bit below the belt. I remember way back in the mid-60s, Honda was trying to break into the Australian motorcycle market with its scooters. One weekend they took over part of the carpark of the very recently completed regional shopping centre and let all and sundry have a little ride on a scooter. Of course the place was flooded with teenagers, but the Honda people didn't care. Their aim was to introduce their type of two-wheeler, not make sales on the day. Of course I had a lot of fun. Nowadays, making a living as a vehicle salesperson isn't the breeze it once was. Tyre-kickers are not as welcome. I wouldn't want to make a salesperson think that my interest in taking a test drive would in anyway lead to a sale. That's just like maliciously pulling the rug out from under someone's hopes. Not my modus operandi. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 I thought it was Praise.' Just tell him/her you will be an unlikely convert and let them make the decision. , Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 Life's too short to waste everyone's time. So why am I sitting here on this forum????? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willedoo Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 20 minutes ago, facthunter said: I thought it was Praise.' Just tell him/her you will be an unlikely convert and let them make the decision. , Nev That's still fraudulently presenting yourself as a potential buyer if you haven't got the money or means to ever buy one. I'm with ome, I couldn't take advantage like that. If I went up to the salesman, told him I was flat broke and could never hope to buy one, then asked him if I could have a drive, that would be different. I wonder how many salspeople would say yes to a test drive if you told them the truth. Not many I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 People still talk to others and have friends and contacts. You make your market by any means. OME is already a vehicle driver and a "Tactile" experience is better than 1000's of words. . An electric car these days is NOT "just another car.". Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 There are events like "Everything Electrical" held yearly in most cities This is an exhibition of EVs and other new electrical tech. They have test drives and they don't necessarily expect you are buying but they are promoting EVs generally as well as their particular brand.. https://au.everythingelectric.show/watt-drive My local EV conversion group had a display where they were giving test drives. I am fortunate in that my son has had 2 EVs and he has lent me both whilst we have been visiting him. His first EV was a BMW I3 REX. Rex stands for range extender. This vehicle has a BMW motor cycle engine that only kicks in if the battery gets below a certain percentage. When we drove it we never got to that level. It was fun if a little bit quirky. His present EV (he has a couple of IC cars as well) is a Tesla 3 Performance. Apart from that I have driven a first-generation Leaf and been a passenger in an BYD Atto 3 and also a Tesla X After driving an EV for a few weeks whilst on holiday and we pick up our car from the airport carpark I sort of feel like there is something wrong with my car in terms of noise and vibration. OME I don't think you should go out of your way to drive one if you are not interested. My concern is mainly just information being factual. For example, sometime ago someone on this forum claimed that to sound the horn on a Tesla you have to use the screen. I read this kind of comment and I know from direct experience that this is not true I don't really care about people's opinions, we are all entitled to our own opinions but I don't believe we are entitled to our own facts. This does cut both ways, I am equally annoyed by overly optimistic claims by EV evangelists. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 Why would I like to have a go at driving an EV? Simply to see how an EV acts when you operate whatever you have to to put the vehicle in motion. Let me explain. When I drive my ICE and am travelling at a constant speed, I know that if I release the accelerator, engine compression, along with tyre/road friction, drivetrain friction and air resistance will slow the vehicle. I've got pretty good at knowing where to do this when I'm coming into town at 100 kph and have to reduce to 80 kph then 60 kph. Even approaching my driveway coming home I know where to back off to allow my car to slow from 100 to 40 at teh point I need to brake to turn into my driveway. I'd just like to carry out the same experiment with an EV to compare one with my ICE. Actually, the thing that I think would put me right off an EV is the movement in them away from analog controls (switches and levers) to digital. Like we do when flying a plane, we learn where the needed controls are located so that we can move to operate them without looking in their direction. Also, I don't like digital speedometer displays simply for the reason that they become a flashing light with very minor changes in speed. We have evolved to be alerted by any movement our eyes detect, so if the speed display is constantly changing, even just to show a one or two kph change, that's distracting one from keeping a proper lookout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 6 minutes ago, octave said: I am equally annoyed by overly optimistic claims by EV evangelists. Hallelujah! You've just highlighted the bee in my bonnet. What you have said is the very reason I invoked the image of Goebbels in my original post. From what I have come in contact with, overly optimistic claims seem to me to be the foundation of scams. I'll happily accept statements that don't suggest that this conversion to total electrification can be achieved in a bit over a decade. Cautious optimism is fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 9 minutes ago, old man emu said: When I drive my ICE and am travelling at a constant speed, I know that if I release the accelerator, engine compression, along with tyre/road friction, drivetrain friction and air resistance will slow the vehicle. I've got pretty good at knowing where to do this when I'm coming into town at 100 kph and have to reduce to 80 kph then 60 kph. Even approaching my driveway coming home I know where to back off to allow my car to slow from 100 to 40 at teh point I need to brake to turn into my driveway. I'd just like to carry out the same experiment with an EV to compare one with my ICE. In an EV regenerative braking.is quite similar to compression braking. In the Tesla, I found after a couple of days when approaching a red light I could predict how much the car would slow down under the load of regenerative braking. After a while, you find you don't use the brake very often at all. This is known as one-pedal driving The beauty of it is instead of energy being p1ssed away in heat and brake wear it is being harnessed. 6 minutes ago, old man emu said: Hallelujah! You've just highlighted the bee in my bonnet. I don't believe I have posted overly optimistic claims. In fact I usually only chip in when faced with claims that are obviously false. If people on this forum were posting blatantly false optimistic information I would criticize it with the same vigour that I criticize pessimistic but false claims. For example when I read wild claims about battery longevity or how common fires are I dig for the data. If I see a video posted that purports to be 2 EVs colliding and bursting into flames I go digging and in this case find that the video is of a IC truck full of gas bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) Double fuel tankers on the road are dangerous. Imagine an accident in a tunnel with one of them. Avoid distorted info from both sides. To me the deception appears to be predominantly AGAINST EV's. Electric allows a lot of independence and is near maintenance free. . NO stinky exhaust. Complex transmissions cooling systems etc. Short trips ruin IC engines fast. Nev Edited May 27 by facthunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry_Atrick Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 35 minutes ago, old man emu said: Hallelujah! You've just highlighted the bee in my bonnet. What you have said is the very reason I invoked the image of Goebbels in my original post. Really? What about the overly pessimistic falsehoods that are spread around about EVs, much to the delight of the fossil fuel industry? DO they not warrant posthumous adulation from Goebbles, as well? Sorry about the cynicism, but there is so much propaganda on so many fronts - why single out EV evangelists? Edited May 27 by Jerry_Atrick 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 52 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said: why single out EV evangelists? I think I made a big mistake by inferring that it only revolved around the EV vehicle itself. I should have made it clear that there was a lot of falsehood being circulated about the ability to supply energy to EVs. In fact the whole electrification area has proved to be a playground for flimflam men, and that smothers what the cautious proponents are telling us. By introducing Goebbels to my comments, I was trying to link the outpourings of present day governments to him. We all know that "Statistics don't lie, but liars lie using statistics". Some of the claims coming from Canberra can be shown to be grossly misleading. I know that you are crying out, "Show us your references", but if I bookmarked them all, my computer would be as full as the ancient Library of Alexandria. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_d Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 OME, bringing in the name of Adolf Hitler's propaganda minister as a comparison to... who, exactly? Your first post says "proponents", then your last "the present day government"... in any case, some vague group of people, who are not seeking to create the master race or the third reich, nor eliminate Jews, homosexuals and the disabled, but instead are working towards helping to save the future of mankind on this planet, is kind of astounding. Misinformation abounds these days. From Trump's "alternate facts" to whole factories of super-spreader social media liars in Russia, to the "Leave" campaign in Brexit. But for this thread you chose as your target not Phillip Morris, who have lied about the health effects of tobacco (and now vapes) for years, not the fossil fuel industry, who lied about climate change for years, not the NRA, who have lied about gun violence for years, not Putin, who lied about an entire country so he could invade it, not religious fundamentalists, who have lied about everything for years... ...but people who support electric vehicles. Can you step back and see how that looks? 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 10 hours ago, Marty_d said: Can you step back and see how that looks? Ah! The disadvantage of posting on forums. The expressions the writer uses are so easily misinterpreted or misunderstood, especially when the audience which reads the post has such a wide range of education and experience and their own way of expressing things. By that I mean that I most obviously think and express myself very differently form other people here, and unless they know me well, they often don't get me. I must confess that it is a characteristic of me that causes problems. I used Goebbels as a symbol of a propagandist. I wasn't drawing attention to the particular subject of his propaganda. Propaganda is the dissemination of information—facts, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion. This definition suggests that propaganda is bad, but sometimes it has a good side , for instance the dissemination of information about unhealthy activities like smoking, or improper driving of vehicles. Unfortunately, given the spatial restraints of forum entries, giving one example of a propagandised topic can lead the reader away from the writer's theme. Perhaps I should have made it crystal clear that I was reacting to the propaganda from governments and other adherents regarding the ability to reach net zero as quickly as is being both suggested and mandated. The propaganda aim to make the public believe that reaching that commendable goal is possible in the incredulously short time scale being set, and without major affects on the environment and the global economy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willedoo Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 And let's not forget that Goebbels had nobbels at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I agree ! . The push to get ICE cars off the road is making " me " , Anti- EV . Not just me , even my eldest has rebelled, and bought a fancy V8 Mercedes convertible. All the wizzbang without that AppleMac screen in the middle of the dash . Even the ' headrest ' hight is electric . spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 You will be dead and parts won't be available for older cars except Mustangs &"T" Tords etc that can be built NEW.. . Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litespeed Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 9 hours ago, old man emu said: Ah! .. Unfortunately, given the spatial restraints of forum entries, giving one example of a propagandised topic can lead the reader away from the writer's theme. Perhaps I should have made it crystal clear that I was reacting to the propaganda from governments and other adherents regarding the ability to reach net zero as quickly as is being both suggested and mandated. The propaganda aim to make the public believe that reaching that commendable goal is possible in the incredulously short time scale being set, and without major affects on the environment and the global economy. But if it's a commendable goal, then it supposes that you agree, we have a huge problem with human induced global heating. It's effecting our environment, economics and is a existential crisis for all humans and other species. We are heading to a minimum 2 degrees global increase of temperature by 2050, at the rate of current change. Anything more than 1.5 degrees C is going to make like far harder for everyone. Wars are being fought over resources not just minerals and oil but water. Environmental refugees are already a big issue and in a 2 degrees scenario, Billions of people will be on the move or at war over resources to just survive. No one is going to be unaffected but by how much depends on what we do now and every day forward. The cheapest solution even purely on economic grounds, is going as fast as possible to reduce emissions and add a carbon tax. Net Zero by 2050 is possible and will lead to massive increases in productivity and quality of life for everyone, particularly Australia. If we don't get on change in a hurry, we will be seriously Fucked up. As it is, we will feel like a child fighting a Gorilla. Even as it is, at best case scenario of 1.5 C, the world will be extremely different climate and weather wise in 2050. We are the frog in the saucepan, and keep turning up the heat. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 28 Author Share Posted May 28 You know what irks me? The common people are fully aware of Doomsday approaching, but despite the claim that most of us live in democracies, the people have got no actual control over the corporations and governments that are either creating the pollutants or doing nothing to stem the production. Wouldn't it be great if a government placed a ban on the excessive, single use packaging that consumers must accept when making purchases? The Australian government is handing out money hand over fist to just about force the use of EVs on a population that is skeptical of them to a large degree. Wouldn't it be better for the government to direct that sort of money into establishing a market for reclaimed and recycled packaging, and that would lead to the establishment of recycling plants. And before you go off alleging that I am saying that EVs should be banned, I'm quite happy for them to exist and be subject to success or failure under the usual market driver of demand. But first let's stop shitting paper and plastics into our own nest. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 What Individuals do , matters too. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Perhaps , A ban on " single occupant " vehicles in cities , with there good public transport System, they wouldn't be missed at all . ( should I post a 😃 ) . spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 Like electricians or Plumbers with a VAN or light truck to carry the tools and bits they need?. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 29 Author Share Posted May 29 If you really look into it, the uptake of EVs in urban areas is based on a factor which they share 100% with ICEs - the cost to buy one. And that factor is overwhelmingly affected by the average family's available money to service a loan to purchase a new vehicle of any propulsion type. Whilst ever the average family is battling to meet the costs of basic survival, thoughts of driving a new vehicle out of a salesroom are about the only luxury they can indulge in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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