The car part that's almost extinct - just 8% of new models have it

[spacesailor]

Kids taught at young age by parents. On station properties. 

On a TV doco about " school of the air " .

spacesailor

[onetrack]

Never seen any kid that's been at the controls of an aircraft at age 12 (or less) without special aviation authority dispensation. Remember that 7 yr old American kid (Jessica Dubroff) that killed herself flying an aircraft solo?

It's idiocy to let any child take charge of a high-powered machine, they lack maturity, experience and motor skills, and cannot recognise impending danger, and react incorrectly to emergency situations.

[onetrack]

ADDENDUM - I checked up on Jessica Dubroffs fatal flight, and it appears she wasn't actually in control of the aircraft at the time - her instructor was.

The crash was the instructors fault for taking off overweight into an impending thunderstorm - thus showing that many adults still lack adequate flight planning skills - let alone children.

Note that the U.S. tightened the aviation laws to ban child pilots after the Dubroff crash.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Dubroff

[pmccarthy]

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

23 hours ago, nomadpete said:

These days a learner MUST suffer 100 hours of logged under tuition from mum or dad.

Hmm a ppl can be earned in 40 with 20 solo..

 

Nit sure there is merit in 100 hrs learning to drive.. it doesn't knock the testosterone out of young male drivers  for example

[nomadpete]

15 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Nit sure there is merit in 100 hrs learning to drive.. it doesn't knock the testosterone out of young male drivers  for example

It does somewhat reduce the 'thrown-in-the-deep-end' learning process that was standard back in the past.

 

But it is costly. Something like $1000 worth of fuel.

 

And I  recall my gliding instructor warning me to log some instructor hours when  reach a hundred hours because thats when over confidence and carelessness kicks in.

[spacesailor]

" overconfidence " .

You are talking of our ' p ' plate , idiots  racing everyone they think are better than them . How many times do we get cut off by by speeding ' p ' plated road hogs.

Road Rage . my  daughters . It's a little frightening being chauffeured by a screaming swearing young thing . same with our G,grandies .

 No patience . 

Probablem I see is over insured . Have a ding ! .who care insurance will fix it .

 

Last year's car .  Write it off & the insurance will buy  this years model  .

spacesailor

 

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Nit sure there is merit in 100 hrs learning to drive.

The problem quite simply is that there is no guidance available to parents who want to teach their children to drive. Just think of how you were taught to fly. You first learned how to operate the plane, then you soloed, but spent a few more hours doing circuits and bumps to improve our skills handling the simplest manoeuvres. Your instructor taught you using a logical sequence and briefed you on the aims and goals of each lesson. Such a thing does not exist for parents. I even wonder of professional driving instructors follow some sort of step-by-step lesson plan.

 

As for setting a minimum number of hours to be logged, without that logical sequence of lessons, much time is wasted. You will often see learner drivers travelling on highways for long distances to "rack up the hours", but those are empty learning hours since they don't involve much practice in dealing with traffic or even handling such things as turns into and out of side streets, negotiating roundabouts, or dealing with traffic lights.

 

The State vehicle licensing authorities only supply learners with a book of the road rules. What is needed is a publication which includes lesson plans and methods to determine if the student has met the competencies set out in the lesson plan.

 

[Marty_d]

My son is on his L's, in fact he drove to school today. I did have to tell him to slow down a couple of times because the Taroona road was wet and very twisty.

The log requires you to enter road type, road conditions, traffic level, weather conditions etc. I'm not sure if they check these and require more lessons if 90% is highway driving in fine weather.

[old man emu]

38 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

My son is on his L's,

Go to your pilot's log book for when you were learning to fly and use it to develop lesson plans that will progress him from first flight (vehicle controls) to restricted pilot's licence ( driving test). Don't forget to instill pre-flight inspections.

 

Early on, get him travelling on a straight road at 60 kph and have him take his foot off the accelerator and observe how the vehicle slows down. Then you can tell him to use that technique when applicable (traffic lights) and not be relying on the brakes. In my opinion, the service brake should only be used to complete a stop from about 40 kph.

[willedoo]

Kids on farms learn easily because they have the vehicles and the off road environment to do it but they also have purpose. The main reason for learning to drive a ute on the farm is not so much preparation for a later life as a licensed driver on the road, but more about being able to deliver a toolbox down the paddock so the old man can get the harvester going or something like that. They learn driving skills on dirt surfaces which comes in handy later on. When the time comes to get L plates there's a lot of adaptation to road rules and bitumen driving, but most farm kids have already developed the basic driving skills with a few years farm driving experience under the belt. For most kids on farms the deciding factor is height. If the feet can safely reach the pedals and the head can see over the dashboard it's all systems go. There's disadvantages to growing up on a farm regarding social isolation, but there's a lot of advantages as well, like being able to drive a truck and be a proficient welder at 12 yo..

[willedoo]

I can remember at primary school the education department ran a road rules awareness programme for us kids. I think is was all about pushbike safety rather than early learning for vehicle driving. They painted white lines all over the asphalt parade ground to simulate streets and intersections. Then they had us wandering around these marked laneways giving way to each other and stuff like that.

[old man emu]

8 minutes ago, willedoo said:

most farm kids have already developed the basic driving skills

I disagree with your argument in that farm driving experience is directly applicable to driving on public roads.

 

They may be able to operate a vehicle a low speed in paddocks and in off-road conditions, but public roads are a vastly different environment. Sure, they can put a vehicle into motion and control its direction on the farm with no other distractions, but they should really accept that they know nothing about how to drive as a licenced driver.

[willedoo]

22 minutes ago, old man emu said:

I disagree with your argument in that farm driving experience is directly applicable to driving on public roads.

So do I. I was referring to the basic driving skills not basic road driving skills.

[willedoo]

ome I think you misunderstood my post or didn't interpret it properly. And bear in mind in the country public roads can often mean dirt or gravel roads.

34 minutes ago, willedoo said:

When the time comes to get L plates there's a lot of adaptation to road rules and bitumen driving, but most farm kids have already developed the basic driving skills with a few years farm driving experience under the belt.

Basic driving skills, not bitumen road driving skills.. The point is they already know how to drive and are faced with the challenge of adapting and learning to drive on the road. City kids are starting right from scratch.

[willedoo]

34 minutes ago, old man emu said:

but they should really accept that they know nothing about how to drive as a licenced driver.

They do accept that. Kids learn to drive on farms and when they are old enough to get a license they learn to drive on the road, simple as that. Some skills are transferable. Correcting a slide in dirt and correcting a slide on a bitumen road are not quite the same but involve some similar principles. A kid who's grown up learning to correct slides on dirt has that experience in the background if it's ever needed. Just one example of how a kid growing up driving has a slight advantage over a city kid who has to start from scratch. It doesn't mean they are better or worse drivers once they've both been publicly driving for some time, but it's certainly easier when the time comes to get a license.

[red750]

In Kew, eastern suburbs of Melourne there is the Kew Traffic School. Too bad the kid in this photo is on the wrong side of the road.

 

 

When I was teaching my kids, (the youngest, my daughter, is 44), the shopping centres were closed on Sundays, so the carparks were virtually deserted, and made a good training area. Painted parking bays to fine tune parking, and Vermont South has a slope which was good for handbrake starts.

 

[old man emu]

40 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Correcting a slide in dirt and correcting a slide on a bitumen road

When I was undergoing training for my basic police driver's certification, I was put on a skid pan and the object of the lesson was to drive around it without losing directional control. Included in the instruction was recovery from loss of steering control, but the aim of the lesson was to identify the conditions that led to loss of control, and to drive so as to avoid them.

 

I think we have previously discussed the pros and cons of "defensive driving" courses. I see them as being a little bit like stall training and recovery in flight training. It's fun to fly into a stall and recover quickly, but the real thing to be taught there is the identification of conditions that will lead to stalling. When applied to driving, we need to teach firstly how far a vehicle will travel in an "emergency stop" to instill the habit of driving at a safe distance, but also what conditions during cornering can lead to the vehicle yawing and trying to swap ends. 

 

Look, there are so many little intricacies to driving that we could fill pages here dealing with each and every one and how to introduce the student driver to them. That's why I say that what is needed is an organised series of both practical and theory lessons and a system to enable parents supervising the learning to assess if the student has met a suitable level of competency.

 

Note that I used the word "supervising". Apparently, only licensed driving instructors can "teach". That's why the licensing authorities should produce some sort of training package.

[willedoo]

I remember quite a few years ago when I had my MQ Patrol ute, I was heading home from town when a bloke going like a bat out of hell towards me lost it on a corner. His first slide was the obvious one and he corrected it but was sliding slightly the other way straight toward me. Once he realised he was heading for a head on he took the smarter option and wheeled his car straight over the bank on my side, just missing me by a few metres. He ended up in the sugar cane but avoided a bad accident. If he had not done that at the last moment he most likely would have died and I would have been fairly messed up. He was an idiot for driving that fast to get himself in that situation, but I had to admire (and be very thankful of) his driving skill to get out of it without a major impact. It all happened in seconds, but I can still remember his hands on that steering wheel working like a rally driver. It took me at least an hour for the heart rate to settle down when I got home.

[Marty_d]

There's nothing so dangerous as a male P plater.

I told my son the other day - "You're getting more confident, which is great, but next year you will get overconfident. You have to be aware of this and remember that you're controlling a ton and a half of steel which can kill you and others."

Your story reminds me of something that happened to me when I was 17. Driving back from a friend's place in the country after an evening of shooting. I was speeding on a dirt road when another car came around the corner. I spun the wheel towards the side of the road, remember going into a slide, his nose went past and I spun back the other way, my nose went in his lane just after his tail went past. Somehow I got out of the skid and kept driving.

Blind luck is all it was, certainly not skill, but I'll never forget that incident and the thought that I wasn't immortal after all.

[red750]

Heres'a crash video that took place in Sept 2023, but was shown on the news this week.

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

There is clearly some nefarious context to that one

[kgwilson]

I hope the driver was put away for that.

[old man emu]

Video was probably released after the completion of a Trial.

[spacesailor]

It wasn't the driver being ejected .

Passenger escaping perhaps ! .

spacesailor