Dutton's Folly (nuclear power)

[facthunter]

When you're in a developing area or one where trees fall on Powerlines you get electricity interruptions  all the time.  Often it's just an inconvenience . Nev

[nomadpete]

20 hours ago, facthunter said:

Why does everything have to get so complex ?  Redundancy costs MONEY . You double up "Just  in Case". There's few things more  reliable than these batteries and they can be self monitoring, Instant switching.,  Nev

I disagree.

 

The 'doubling up' of batteries gives double the capacity which (although not needed daily) caters for the less common extended periods of lack of sun.

 

 

[nomadpete]

19 hours ago, facthunter said:

When you're in a developing area or one where trees fall on Powerlines you get electricity interruptions  all the time.  Often it's just an inconvenience . Nev

To you or to me, I'd agree.

 

To a millennial that needs 24/7 phone charging and high speed internet, an hour's outage is unbearable.

[nomadpete]

Veering back toward thread - 'the nuclear option'.

 

I would prefer the national debate to include an unspoken option.

 

Whether Nuclear is included or increased Solar, or community batteries, the east coast grid need investment to stay usable.

 

The option that is conveniently ignored,  is....

 

Should we start planning the downgrading and eventual dismantling of the grid in favor of community batteries?

 

Major industrial users of electricity are mostly located adjacent to power stations or could retain a HV spur to the bearest solar farm.

 

Communities can have their privately owned and run community batteries.

[spacesailor]

But do we all .  need connection to that grid .

A house-hold with excess solar , plus oversized battery lesson's the load on that grid .

More independent communities lesson's the grid-lode by a huge amount. 

The Big industries,  like Bunnings,  & Aldi have gone solar.  Which means more grid capacity 

For the rest of the grid-user's .

Am I thinking wrong here . The future with out a grid system. 

spacesailor

[facthunter]

The grid has never included WA and It's not economical for remote areas either. That doesn't mean it should be  done without where it's suitable. The weather is not uniform all along the east coast where Pump Hydro would also work well. Dutton is not in favour of Pump Hydro although there's extensive areas planned to use it currently. Nev

[facthunter]

 Dutton is coming under extreme pressure to answer the Many questions about HIS plans. We will get to Know as it's introduced doesn't cut it. Nev

[old man emu]

Based on his prior history, one could conclude that Dutton's nuclear policy is simply smoke and mirrors aimed at trying to convince the electorate that his mob have any sort of policies to handle what a government should handle, as well as a way to divert the attention of any other Party or Independent from working towards good government.

[onetrack]

In the far-flung regional areas of W.A., the rural powerlines to outlying areas were becoming a major cost burden to Western Power, the local energy supplier and maintainer of the grid.

Quite a number of marginal farms suffered from excessive amounts of blackouts due to powerline damage by storms and long waits for crews to arrive to fix the damage.

So Western Power decided to pull down those remote powerlines and replace them with on-site, stand-alone power generation facilities. The setup is solar panels, batteries and a backup diesel generator. The arrangement has vastly improved the amount of power available to the farms, and reduced blackouts to a bare minimum for them.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-02/thousands-of-renewable-standalone-power-systems-to-be-rolled-out/101479136

[kgwilson]

A friend of mine who has since died, an ex pilot, airfield owner & cane farmer from near Yamba, built a new house on his farm & was quoted 30k for 2 power poles, transformer, plus cables & connection fees to connect his new house back in 2011 or 12. What he did was get a heap of solar panels, an inverter, and at the time a lot of lead acid batteries for storage and a backup diesel generator for  long periods of little sun. Everything in his house and sheds is electric including air conditioning, cooking and refrigeration plus some big freezers. Hot water is from an electric heat pump. The entire system cost less than 30k.

 

I was having a chat to him after 5 or 6 years regarding how it was all going & how often the diesel generator needed to be brought in. The answer surprised me as he said the only time the generator had been used was every few months when he started and ran it to make sure it still worked. He'd never had to use it as a backup.

 

In my own hangar I have a 25 watt solar panel with a simple controller connected to a 12 volt deep cycle battery. I have an inverter and run lights off that plus some 3 pin sockets for appliances like the vacuum cleaner & fans and I charge my power tools & aircraft batteries and a winch to pull the aircraft in. It won't run my compressor or pressure washer but now I have an EV that is no problem either.

 

If I was building a new house I'd seriously consider going off grid. It just takes a bit of knowledge & planning.

[Siso]

Love pumped hydro, 80%round trip efficiency,  multiple GW size storage and a mature technology. 

[nomadpete]

Simplicity

2 hours ago, Siso said:

Love pumped hydro, 80%round trip efficiency,  multiple GW size storage and a mature technology. 

 

[facthunter]

No steam involved either. It's always inefficient.  Hydro is relatively quick response and reliable when there's water there. Nev

[Marty_d]

When batteries come down a bit we'll get one.

Probably still stay connected to the grid but at the moment we get bugger all for all the power we generate, while paying through the nose for the evening power we use from the grid.

Far better to charge the battery first and use that when the sun goes down.

[nomadpete]

5 hours ago, Marty_d said:

When batteries come down a bit we'll get one.

Probably still stay connected to the grid but at the moment we get bugger all for all the power we generate, while paying through the nose for the evening power we use from the grid.

Far better to charge the battery first and use that when the sun goes down.

You could build your own pumped storage on your steep block. You already have a running creek and a dam - you are halfways there already!

 

A neat little project to fill in your spare time!

[Marty_d]

"Spare... time"?

[pmccarthy]

The recoverable energy from pumped storage is a lot less than you might expect. Either the volume or the head needs to be quite large and there are preferred sizes for the equipment. A farm dam on a hill driving a Pelton wheel has to be matched to a solar and wind driven electric pump in the basic system. The energy produced by solar and wind has to be enough to supply you needs while also returning water to the upper dam - a big demand.

[nomadpete]

Quite so.

 

However it is also not at all complex, engineering wise. It has a proven track record of reliability and safety, worldwide.

 

And although its efficiency may not be perfect, we are only storing surplus energy that cost nothing to make (if the energy is solar). It can be built relatively quickly and has a extendable design expectany of 50 years.

 

I can only speak personally of the SE Qld plant. As I  noted before, it works on a low head of about 65mtrs, yet it can match the output of a coal fired power station.

 

There are other options, of course.

 

In my opinion, each state needed a pumped storage many years ago. But dams are always a political hazard for politicians and NIMBYs.

 

[facthunter]

It's NOT Dutton's FOLLY . It's a CON act to keep Coal and Gas going and kill off EV's. His costings are based on US using LESS electricity BECAUSE we will still be driving ICE cars and the cost of IMPORTING OIL is not mentioned in their figures.   The "Climate Deniers " are behind this one too  BIG. Nuclear uses steam and turbines. That aspect is inefficient and failure prone and needs LOTS of cooling water. Collie for one has none of that and why would we want more heat in Lakes or Seas? Australia is one of the driest continents.  Nev

[onetrack]

I've often thought about the multiple hundreds of open pit mines in W.A. that could be used for pumped energy storage. Many of these abandoned pits are full of water, and many are 200-500M deep.

In addition, they usually have a huge waste material dump adjoining the pit, adding to the height discrepancy between the pit, and the top of the waste dump.

Surely, these sites are ideal for pumped hydro? It would generally take little to add a link to the main power grid, to deliver the power generated, as the grid is often within reasonable reach of the open pits.