Islam(aphobia)

[nomadpete]

51 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

the world has become a bad place, but suppressing that speech will make it worse

You are sounding a bit like our tech bros with that comment..... Say what you like no matter what?

 

I feel that a degree of self censorship is good.

Moderate debate csn be constructive even if it causes a degree of discomfort. But you can't expect people to be strictly factual and unemotional.

 

These issues become emotional - that's when the fights start.

[facthunter]

It's about situational awareness here and NOW. and not drawing the crabs.  This stuff has become extra sensitive right now due to a lot of blame being thrown about and large penalties proposed for people propagating "inflammatory" material. (my words) How about we just be cautious eh. It can all be restored if that's your main concern .My concern is for the forum. not wasting time with minutea at this stage . Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

38 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

You are sounding a bit like our tech bros with that comment..... Say what you like no matter what?

 

I feel that a degree of self censorship is good.

Moderate debate csn be constructive even if it causes a degree of discomfort. But you can't expect people to be strictly factual and unemotional.

 

These issues become emotional - that's when the fights start.

I am not saying a free for all.. finding the balance is difficult, but letting the pendulum swing too far either way can be just as damaging.

 

Gareth has stated evidence and  opinion drawn from that evidence. I don't agree entirely with his opinion and I think his evidence is flawed in terms of migration to Australia, or having those already in Australia go home. 

 

He has also stated that not all Muslims are terrorists or violent. In fact he states most are peaceful. He is saying however the risks of importing terrorism or violent behaviour is high.

 

This is very different to wanton hate speech and vilification. It allows a debate of an issue, perceived or otherwise, based an assertion of on the surface valid facts. Wanting hate, disinformation, and bilufication should have consequences. This does not appear to be one of those posts.

 

Hope that clear it up

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sorry about typos on last post..  phones and I are not friends.. but fiends

[gareth lacey]

I have Muslim friends albiet not practicing Muslims, they however agree that we are (in the west ) allowing the narrative to be used against us, why can we not state facts about islam,or any religion that are harmful, the terrorists islamist hurts thier own kind far more than western ,but if we raise concerns we are called out for "islamaphobia"

so stifling free debate, i personally dislike any religion, but if others want to follow go for it, but committing disgusting acts of violence against the west or other muslims should be eradicated.

 

[facthunter]

I'm not into stifling debate merely pointing out the risks of drawing the Crabs . search engines go on trigger words and phrases. That is the real world we unfortunately live in right now. why risk getting caught in a net someone has hastily cast. Put your egos in your back pocket for a few minutes. No ones barring you from the forum and we don't want to endanger the forum do we?  Nev

[octave]

Just my 2  cents worth, I don't particularly have strong feelings either way regarding closing or continuing this thread.   I do however find these sorts of conversations trying.    People start out by saying "I am not saying all Vulcans are like this but...."   It can then morph into (on all sides) sweeping statements.  These issues are immensely complicated and people tend to have passionate beliefs.   This is one reason I periodically disappear without a trace from the forum.   I doubt that anyone will change anyone else's passionately held position.

 

I heard a harrowing recording of a young girl in that part of the world. She was on a phone desperately pleading for help. She screamed that her family had been killed.  When help got to her she had also been killed.   I won't reveal the ethnicity of this girl because this does not change the value of the pain and suffering.   I will say this though, either this girl was too young to be a terrorist or to even understand the issues or too young to be able to have any input into the government of Israel or the actions of the IDF.

 

If my wife walks home from the station at night it is not terroism she fears.

 

 

[onetrack]

Innocent civilians are always the first and often the biggest casualties of war. But these people supported Hamas and Hezbollah wholeheartedly, knowing full well these two organisations are recognised as promoters of terrorism, and that they dedicate their existence to the total destruction of Israel.

[pmccarthy]

Shutting down discussion? It is like good Germans in 1941 saying "we have heard about these things, but we cannot discuss them, because there will be a knock at the door".

[octave]

4 minutes ago, onetrack said:

But these people supported Hamas and Hezbollah wholeheartedly,

 

Does a baby?  To me killing is abhorrent.   Certainly, justifications can be made but there has to be proportionality otherwise you may as well use a nuclear weapon and wipe them all out.  Anyway, I don't want to get drawn in so I will leave it to you folks, let me know when you have found the solution. 

[nomadpete]

42 minutes ago, octave said:

, let me know when you have found the solution. 

In these issues, there is no solution to the debates.

 

That's my reason to bail from this thread.

[facthunter]

My motive has (once again) been Misconstrued despite my clear qualifications throughout.. ALWAYS ready to put the worst interpretation on things, rather than consider the massage being sent. We even expect Twitter and Zuckerberg to remove extreme stuff form their sites.. It's super divisive at this time and people are looking at ways of reducing tensions. which everyone sensible wants. everything that" could be" a source of hate  would have to be included. in a thorough research process and  Australia is what it is now. Not the country that called migrants Wogs , Reffo's and Balts  There's equal capacity in ALL  to do BAD things and good things.. We all have to be responsible for what we say publicly. We have more "GUEST" visitors than regulars always remember that and the site is not OURS to jeopardise. Nev

[Grumpy Old Nasho]

On 22/01/2025 at 3:14 PM, octave said:

Dont forget white supremacists  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings

 

How could we forget it? A terrible crime committed by a bloke who emerged from mainstream Aussie society bringing shame on us when we have always considered ourselves to be peaceful and non-violent.

 

Similarly, Islamists have emerged from the mainstream Muslim community here and committed their violent deeds, randomly killing and injuring innocent people in crowded CBD's and other places.

 

In both of these traumatic ideological cases, radicalization, I believe, is to blame. So if we can find a way to minimize the chance to become radicalized, less attacks will occur in a given time span, or none at all, but that would be optimistic. The AFP is working on it, and Imams are now moderating themselves, speaking from pulpits, in the case of Muslims.

[gareth lacey]

On 22/01/2025 at 2:14 PM, octave said:

Dont forget white supremacists  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings

 

not that many

[facthunter]

They fail the Supremacy bit.   Nev

[pmccarthy]

Trump says the USA will take over Gaza. When the surrounding countries refuse to take the Palestinians, he will say "I offered them the solution and they refused it." Then he will be in a position to back Israel as hard as he likes. He is also rebuilding sanctions on Iran. I predict a popular revolution in Iran within 12 months.

[facthunter]

He's planning to attack their Nuclear infrastructure. The sanctions are already THERE. HE will do whatever Netanyahu wishes. THAT won't wash in the REST of the M.E.   Nev

[pmccarthy]

I think you will find Biden removed many of Trump's sanctions on Iran.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

I think you will find Biden removed many of Trump's sanctions on Iran.

 

Fact check: Is Joe Biden weakening Iran sanctions?

 

Note: I have not even read this article so it may support or contradict your assertion.   

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Deutsche Welle (DW) News – Bias and Credibility - Overall, we rate Deutsche Welle (DW) Left-Center biased, says mediabiasfactcheck.

 

Hahaha .. I don't really care that their fact check is biased, I am just serving back the response I usually get when I post on politics or climate change. 

[octave]

4 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Deutsche Welle (DW) News – Bias and Credibility - Overall, we rate Deutsche Welle (DW) Left-Center biased, says mediabiasfactcheck.

 

Hahaha .. I don't really care that their fact check is biased, I am just serving back the response I usually get when I post on politics or climate change. 

 

You see the thing is I specifically stated I did not read the article so if you have criticisms about its accuracy you are free to post hard evidence.  I don't give much credence to your opinion and I don't think you should give much credence to mine. We should both (and everyone else) be supporting our "opinions" with hard evidence.    We can of course dispute evidentiary sources. The thing is it is dumb (for either of us) to assert that Biden did or did not eliminate sanctions whem it surely is a matter of public record.  The problem is that the far right (and left) is apt to assert things that suit their political beliefs. For me, it is the evidence. Experts can disagree so therefore I take the majority opinion amongst these experts. This is why I vaccinate and am concerned with climate change. On both of these issues, I don't give much credence to the outliers such as yourself. 

[red750]

Don't worry, Trumpster is going to screw it all up anyway.

[old man emu]

I read the article. The US has been involved in sanctions against Iran since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Sometimes sanctions have been eased, such as the time $6M was unfrozen in exchange for 5 US citizens being held hostage (I learned that from the article.)

 

Sanctions are just one of the tools of international diplomacy. There are no rules for their use, just what is convenient at the time. Over the past fortnight we have heard Trump bluster, but he has backed off when he sees the narrowest of winning scores on the board.

 

[facthunter]

What you walk past, you accept. While you can STILL  vote , do SO AND . make it effective.   The average Iranian would be better educated than the Average American today and under Trump It will only get worse..  A bloke who BOASTS HE has NEVER read a Book. Iranians SUFFER under a THEO cracy  MUSK who no one voted for, HAS more power than any Mullah. AMERICA IS NOT a DEMOCRACY, now. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Deutsche Welle (DW) News – Bias and Credibility - Overall, we rate Deutsche Welle (DW) Left-Center biased, says mediabiasfactcheck.

 

Hahaha .. I don't really care that their fact check is biased, I am just serving back the response I usually get when I post on politics or climate change. 

Yes.. Left centre - is not left.. Other organisations rate them as centre: https://www.allsides.com/news-source/deutsche-welle-media-bias

 

Either way, in terms of bias, with centre in their rating, it does tend to mean relatively unbiased - or at least cautious in their bias.  Unlike many of the sources you quote for climate change (and of which the evidence usually flys in the face of).

Edited 3 hours ago by Jerry_Atrick