European Union "Divorce" case coming soon,. . .

[Marty_d]

France and Germany are major manufacturing economies and would never relinquish control of their armies and arsenals. I can see France for one splitting away from the EU, especially if the far-right elements gain control. One thing is for sure, Europe is going to be a pretty interesting place for the next few years.

 

 

[Spooks]

The original 'plan' that was rumoured several years ago, was for an EU army made up of member states rather than each state relinquishing its military ie members of the EU would provide troops/ships/aircraft. Still don't understand why the EU would need or desire a military though unless it does plan to become a single nation in the long term.

 

 

[Marty_d]

When it all comes down to it, you could argue that we should eventually move beyond countries to larger groupings and finally, a single world.

 

Most old countries (not us newbies like Aus & USA) started with very small tribes, then city-states, then larger kingdoms within what we'd call a single country. Then in recent history we've had empires come and go, but that was the imposition of one country's rule over others (generally enabled by more advanced weaponry), and could never last. More recent attempted empires have been stopped by large wars.

 

I think groupings like the EU are in general a positive thing, but they have to be set up properly. Countries are at different levels in terms of economy, industry, politics, legal systems and social cohesion. Agricultural land and practices are different. This is why it doesn't make sense to mandate conformity of size and colour of strawberries, for instance. Or to impose austerity measures on countries with high debt loads, stifling their economy further.

 

 

[dutchroll]

More disturbing reports (various mainstream sources) of the Brexit aftermath:

 

• Gibraltar in talks with Scotland to remain in EU
   
  

 

 

• Second referendum on Scottish independence "highly likely"
   
  

 

 

• Britain gripped by wave of racism in aftermath of vote. Police report hate crime reports have spiked by more than 50%. Polish embassy issues statement saying it is "deeply concerned by the recent incidents of xenophobic abuse directed against the Polish community". "No more Polish vermin" leaflets posted in letterboxes through Cambridgeshire.
   
  

 

 

• Standards and Poor last night stripped the UK of its AAA credit rating. Fitch then followed with a cut to the UK's credit score. There are now no credit rating agencies which have the UK at triple A.
   
  

 

 

• £40 billion more stripped off UK stock values yesterday
   
  

 

 

• Bank of England to meet today to offer emergency loans to British banks
   
  

 

 

• Leave campaigner and Tory MEP Daniel Hannan tells BBC last night that the leave campaign "had never promised to cut immigration numbers" (that'll go down well!)
   
  

 

And these charming things:

 

[ATTACH]47932._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

On the bright side, it's going to be very attractive to me to go on holiday over there soon!

 

[fly_tornado]

Its fantastic, Austerity Budget 2.0, here we come.

 

 

[Marty_d]

On the bright side, it's going to be very attractive to me to go on holiday over there soon!

I wonder if I'm white enough...

 

 

[dutchroll]

I'm white, Australian born, English native language, descended from English free settlers in 1836, and grew up in a middle class fully employed Australian family with no foreign breeding influence.

 

I shouldn't have any problems. What could they possibly not like about me? ;)

 

 

[Spooks]

I wouldn't be so confident in the reports of racism. The Remain voters are very upset at the result and are doing all sorts to get a re-run/ have it overturned. Wouldn't surprise me if they're making false claims to make Brexit look an evil vote. After all, they did declare all Leave voters to be racist morons.

 

Everyone I know in the Indian community actually voted Leave. They disliked the preference shown to EU migrants over those of the former commonwealth

 

 

[Spooks]

When it all comes down to it, you could argue that we should eventually move beyond countries to larger groupings and finally, a single world.

Most old countries (not us newbies like Aus & USA) started with very small tribes, then city-states, then larger kingdoms within what we'd call a single country. Then in recent history we've had empires come and go, but that was the imposition of one country's rule over others (generally enabled by more advanced weaponry), and could never last. More recent attempted empires have been stopped by large wars.

 

I think groupings like the EU are in general a positive thing, but they have to be set up properly. Countries are at different levels in terms of economy, industry, politics, legal systems and social cohesion. Agricultural land and practices are different. This is why it doesn't make sense to mandate conformity of size and colour of strawberries, for instance. Or to impose austerity measures on countries with high debt loads, stifling their economy further.

I agree with this. Generally I do see world government as the end goal and if done correctly, will be a huge step forward. Unfortunately governments are run by politicians who are greedy and corrupt which ends up with the situation we now see in the EU.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I wouldn't be so confident in the reports of racism. The Remain voters are very upset at the result and are doing all sorts to get a re-run/ have it overturned. Wouldn't surprise me if they're making false claims to make Brexit look an evil vote. After all, they did declare all Leave voters to be racist morons.

Everyone I know in the Indian community actually voted Leave. They disliked the preference shown to EU migrants over those of the former commonwealth

I'm not sure that resorting to a conspiracy theory that "Remain" voters are rigging any and all reports of adverse effects, and in particular racist behaviour, is necessarily a broadly supportable position.

 

The predominant reports of hate crime increases have come from police themselves. I reckon they would probably know. I would totally agree it's unfair to label all "Leave" voters as racist morons, but I would contend that it's becoming self-evident that a fair number of them didn't think particularly hard about what the broader consequences of a "Leave" vote might be.

 

Ultimately it might've been better for Britain to exert other types of pressure on the EU for reform - particularly immigration reform which is what this seems to be all about - which even the founding states have admitted is needed. But it's all too late for that now. The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

 

Boris Johnson tonight:

 

"The pound is stable, the markets are stable"

 

Boris, get off the drugs eh?

 

 

[Phil Perry]

A couple of British tabloids have reported this. Of course they took the information 3rd or 4th hand from Polish TV station TVP and a mystery "leaked" 9 page report from European Defence Ministers. In fact the Daily Mail is simply repeating "the Express reports that.....", which in turn is repeating that "Polish TVP reports that.......", etc etc.

Aside from the fact that TVP's reputation for objective reporting isn't exactly stellar and they're renowned for being highly xenophobic, anti Semitic and nationalistic, I used to work for Defence and I have never, ever seen a Defence policy report on re-shaping the entire military force, let alone dismantling entire nations (I mean, seriously?) which was only 9 pages long. 9 long chapters or 9 volumes perhaps.

 

So believe the report's accuracy at your peril. I personally highly doubt it and, allowing for mistranslation and taking things out of context, it seems exaggerated and a touch paranoid to me. But this seems to be the way of the entire debate. Do you honestly believe for a moment that France and Germany would relinquish control of their military forces to Brussels? Especially France with its nuclear arsenal? Do you seriously believe France would allow itself to cease to exist as a nation? This is pie-in-the-sky stuff.

 

Meanwhile as Britain vacillates, the pound freefalls to a 30 year low, British bank, airline and property shares continue to dive, the nation appears rudderless, and it certainly appears the NHS won't see a cent of any extra money.

 

As I surmised. . .'Best of luck with that one. . .'

 

The same chestnut has, however, been kicking around for some years in Euro circles.

 

'Britain' isn't Vacillitating at all,. . .however, what passes for the 'Government' certainly is.

 

What is being pushed as the best course of action at the moment, by the great and the good in the media is copying the 'Norway Model' followed by yet another plebiscite to see what the people think of that. Rough comparison in the graphic below. Personally, I'm discounting the 'Britain AWASH with Racist actions as what it is, ie, a few hundred looneys out of a 65 Million population, daubing slogans and being shouty. Awash ? Please keep this in perspective. We have more racist loons like that living on an estate 2 miles from Where I live, and there are virtually no immigrants at all anywhere in this area.

 

[ATTACH]47933._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

Anyone want to lend the UK some money ? After all, we have a DOUBLE 'A' RATING - Only third,. . . down from the top of a list of Twenty Three classifications don't cha know.

 

Standard and Poors,. . . Oh yes, . . . that's the mob which predicted the ENRON failure, one day before it did, and maintained a top credit rating to dozens of American banks whilst they were selling crap sub-prime derivatives. . . .

 

[fly_tornado]

Peñôn de Gibraltar

 

 

[dutchroll]

Phil it doesn't matter what you think of S&P (I hate them too, incidentally).

 

That they and every other credit rating agency have downgraded your credit rating automatically means it becomes more expensive for your Government to borrow money, and every Government borrows money for various reasons just like everyday people do.This means that your Government will need to raise more revenue to pay it back, and guess how they do that?

 

When I say "Britain" is vacillating, I by default mean your Government. That is what leads to financial and business instability which affects a broad range of things such as pension plans, investments, etc. The finance and business sectors couldn't give a crap what the average Briton does, but they do care what your Government does.

 

 

[Spooks]

I'm not sure that resorting to a conspiracy theory that "Remain" voters are rigging any and all reports of adverse effects, and in particular racist behaviour, is necessarily a broadly supportable position.

The predominant reports of hate crime increases have come from police themselves. I reckon they would probably know. I would totally agree it's unfair to label all "Leave" voters as racist morons, but I would contend that it's becoming self-evident that a fair number of them didn't think particularly hard about what the broader consequences of a "Leave" vote might be.

 

Ultimately it might've been better for Britain to exert other types of pressure on the EU for reform - particularly immigration reform which is what this seems to be all about - which even the founding states have admitted is needed. But it's all too late for that now. The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater.

 

Boris Johnson tonight:

 

"The pound is stable, the markets are stable"

 

Boris, get off the drugs eh?

If I phoned the police and stated "I was called a French bastard". It'd go down on record as a hate crime. It often comes to a case of 'he said-she said' and it will just goes on record. I imagine some cases could be genuine as 'Leave' did attract a thuggish element, but as I say it would not surprise me if those lovable lefties are trying to stir trouble.

 

The U.K. did 'try' to get reform, but the best Cameron claimed he could get was a piece of paper saying we had special status. I think a big reason for the lack of movement from the EU and lack of effort from Cameron was that they thought we'd vote to stay. Certainly with the amount of propaganda from the EU, the BBC etc I certainly thought an in-vote was secured. Seeing the looks on the faces of the EU politicians following the result suggests this!

 

 

[dutchroll]

....but as I say it would not surprise me if those lovable lefties are trying to stir trouble.

Yeah but that usually cuts both ways. You can rarely ever say it's "only the left" or "only the right".

 

I've seen the left and the right both severely stirring up trouble. Then they go and beat each other up.

 

 

[Spooks]

I wish they would just beat each other up and stop the whining!

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Sexit has been trending online

 

 

[Spooks]

Europejskie superpaństwo. Zobacz oryginalny dokument

 

The U.K. Doesn't Have a Plan, But the EU Does

 

Interesting reading about the 'superstate' plans

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil it doesn't matter what you think of S&P (I hate them too, incidentally).

That they and every other credit rating agency have downgraded your credit rating automatically means it becomes more expensive for your Government to borrow money, and every Government borrows money for various reasons just like everyday people do.This means that your Government will need to raise more revenue to pay it back, and guess how they do that?

 

When I say "Britain" is vacillating, I by default mean your Government. That is what leads to financial and business instability which affects a broad range of things such as pension plans, investments, etc. The finance and business sectors couldn't give a crap what the average Briton does, but they do care what your Government does.

 

We were warned by the CRAs three months ago what would happen if we voted leave. This means that the markets quite possibly knew what to expect so none of this comes as much of a surprise.

 

I'm not arguing with anything you have said mate. Today, I have not independently checked this for factual accuracy, but the Missis said that £40 billion, had just been 'Wiped ON' to the 'Footsie' and the Pound was rising. . . .Just got back in from a bloody long trip back from Glasgow, from a funeral. So I'm knackered and just checking email for tomorrow,. . .can't stay away from RF though. . . I think it rates as some sort of OCD sickness. . . . She also said that DB was not a happy organisation. . .can't be bothered to check German banks tonight,. . . a nice Thai Green Curry is bubbling on the indoor barbie. . . . . . CUL.

 

Phil.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Phil you have just identified RF addiction as a new disease that I think requires medical research funding. I need a withdrawal programme. Maybe I should start reading those 2/6d war flying comics again.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Europejskie superpaństwo. Zobacz oryginalny dokument

The U.K. Doesn't Have a Plan, But the EU Does

I've read the document. I see no threat to national sovereignty in it, but perhaps someone could point me to the paragraphs which do.

 

"Superstate" is a scary sounding catchphrase, however when you actually read the document it seems to mostly want to reinforce current EU security and economic ties, as well as develop common refugee policies (sounds sensible, but even so, you're unlikely to satisfy everyone no matter what the policy is). They do suggest more cooperation over fiscal matters (not unreasonable if you have very close trade and economic ties), but using the already existing European Parliament.

 

The talk of a "common border" is a bit vague but I suspect it's in effect what already exists, with freedom of movement between member states as well as developing common border security policies. Good luck with getting agreement on that, but not an unreasonable goal so everyone knows where they stand.

 

I love the way columnists analyse these bureaucratic papers for the "masses". The only common military thing it talks of is the possibility of a jointly controlled "Coast Guard" in conjunction with the discussion on common border security.

 

But lo and behold, the columnist turns this into a "European Maritime Force", and before you know it, the masses will be saying "European Navy", followed by "oh my God they're planning dismantle our proud national Navies and absorb them!" It's Chinese whispers at ten paces.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Half truths make the argument so much more persuasive

 

 

[Soleair]

For sure many of those who voted 'leave ' will now rue their decision. "Vote in haste, regret at leisure" to paraphrase the adage. But in my view, the root cause of the present woeful situation in which the (once)Great Britain finds itself was the misguided decision to hold a referendum in the first place.

 

Yes, I know hindsight is the clearest form of vision. But the whole system of parliamentary democracy is founded on the election of representatives to speak for their constituents. In turn, this concept is predicated upon those representatives having the time, the wit, and the ability to understand fully the implications of any proposed policy, to discuss, debate, and in due course agree (yes, with a majority) to a course of action. That is why they are there. That is what they are paid for.

 

So why, then, when every MAJOR party, and every living British prime minister, agreed that the exUK should stay in the EEC was a referendum called at all?

 

Ok, given that it was, it could be argued that both sides set out their reasons for their views, and that these were freely promulgated throughout all the media. So then the good citizens of Britain take on board all the various arguments, predictions, facts & forecasts and retire to consider quietly and calmly. Then make a reasoned judgement on which course seems to offer the greatest good.

 

Yeah, right. The voting public in (I guess) all parliamentary democracies are sick and tired of the broken promises, distorted statistics, spin and downright lies that is the stock in trade of many politicians. The rosy picture painted of the Nirvana that will surely follow once they are elected is never realised.

 

So nobody should be surprised that the electorate apparently ignored or disbelieved the predictions of a Leave vote, now that they have proved to be broadly accurate. The masses did what masses do - they responded to the best advertising campaign. Spin doctors and ad agencies know exactly which buttons to press to get the result they are paid to produce, and that result need have nothing to do with the greater good.

 

And so while the idle wealthy of London sipped their champagne secure in their ivory castles, the great unwashed of the North reacted to the emotive images of streams of even more unwashed would-be immigrants queuing to invade. They made a stand to 'reclaim' Britain's sovereignty against Johnny Foreigner. The evil despots of Brussels could be repelled by their courageous vote to go it alone and stand proud. Only now is the realisation dawning that it wasn't really like that at all - but alas! too late. And no, you can't have another vote now you've thought about it properly (something else that was spelled out clearly in advance).

 

Oh, and if my view on the general nature of politicians and their promises appears to argue against the idea of leaving them to decide such issues without a referendum, Churchill said it best: " democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

Bruce

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil you have just identified RF addiction as a new disease that I think requires medical research funding. I need a withdrawal programme. Maybe I should start reading those 2/6d war flying comics again.

Oh YES !. . . . my Paternal Grandfather used to read loads of those . . 'War Picture Story' and 'Battle' etc. . . Jeeze, were those really 2/6d ? ? My Dad used to bring him a ruck of them each Friday night . . .seems a lot of dosh for 1955 / 6. . . maybe they weere even cheaper then. . .can't remember. I remember getting Ninepence pocket money though, 6d from Dad and 3d from Nan and Grandad. . . and 2 shillings a week for my paper round in the evenings !

 

Ey up Lad,. . . yer tell that T' Kids of today an' they wouldn't believe ya. . . Luxury !

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Soleair said :

 

"So why, then, when every MAJOR party, and every living British prime minister, agreed that the UK should stay in the EEC was a referendum called at all?"

 

The reason for this is that every living Prime minister of Grreat Britain has lied about the TRUE final intention of the EEC / EU to create a One Government superstate, obliterating all of the nation state members. History now reveals that this was the intention from day one.

 

Out of Two of the now dead Prime Ministers involved in this process, Only One, Margaret Hilda Thatcher, ever told the truth about this, and was a thorn in it's side.

 

Edward Heath, who took us into the EEC whilst witholding the real intention, about which he fully understood belongs in the list of liars.

 

They were all obviously correct, ie, you can't trust 'People' to vote in the correct way.

 

David Cameron offered the chance of a referendum in his campaign for Government, but was stopped due to having to put together a coalition with the Liberal Democrats, who are all Pro EU to a man. The EU question has plagued the Conservative party for a very long time, John Major lost his government to Tony Blair due to constant infighting between pro and anti EU factions. Blair kicked the thought into the long grass for thirteen years.

 

Cameron is 'alleged' ( by one of his then senior advisors ) to have re awakened the promise of a referendum as a sop to get Gay Marriage, a non-manifesto item,. . through parliament, which he finally did against a large portion of his party, thereby alienating a majority of grassroots conservatives. ( I have no problem with this particular legislation incidentally, I have a live and let live philosophy and always have )

 

Incidentally, there are still lots and lots of potentioal immigrants queueing up to enter the country, and whatever your personal thought are about this, one thing is a fact. The infrastructure of this country cannot cope with the newcomers we have at the moment, and this will become a much grreater problem as time marches on. So many cannot be absorbed, employed, housed and cared for so quickly. The UK is too small a land mass. 65 million people is the current Government population estimate, many beoieve that this is quite a bit less than the real figure, as this is just the people who are actually known about.

 

Illegals are arriving daily across the English Channel in the backs of trucks, and in small boats to quiet beaches on the South Coast. We have the total sum of NO Coastguard vessels to monitor them all.

 

As I've mentioned before,. . .Interesting times.