Do your bit for justice

[Yenn]

There was a report delivered today stating that aboriginals are over represented in our penal system. 25% of prison inmates are aboriginal. A magistrate has come out and said the high incarceration rate is because they commit crimes. Shame on her for saying such a thing!

 

We should do something about this high number of aboriginal prisoners, so I am asking you, if you are white to go out and commit a crime. It does seem to be the only way to redress the balance.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

A magistrate has come out and said the high incarceration rate is because they commit crimes. .

Imagine telling the truth, obviously a radical right wing, Pauline Hanson fan.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Some people commit crimes because they know that being sent to jail is nothing to worry about. They have at least a dozen relatives on the inside (uncles, brothers, cousins etc.) They know they are safe, will have a bed, meals and medicals etc. Jail is no deterrent for these people so they continue to commit crimes. A relative was a prison officer for thirty years and knows what goes on. There was an article about this in the 1970's (Readers Digest) so it's nothing new. Political correctness is one of the greatest causes of on going problems in our society because it stifles debate (among other things). However, as I have said before, I couldn't give a toss, too old to care anymore....

 

 

[kaz3g]

And some people commit crimes because they are seriously unwell, destitute, homeless, come from a dysfunctional family or have never known anything different and they need to survive.

 

They have no sense of optimism for the future because they can see no future. They are the second or third generation in perpetual unemployment. They don't have the resources, physical or intellectual, to change their circumstances and they therefore have no self-esteem whatsoever. Instead they are easily coerced into using alcohol and drugs to make themselves "feel better" and they end up in the criminal justice system

 

But that's ok...goal will fix it for them...if they don't suicide first.

 

The rates of suicidality amongst our Indigenous communities is nothing short of shameful. The perpetuation of paternalistic and demeaning measures to control their incomes will never teach them to manage their own affairs. The rate at which their children are removed from families is now worse than it was 70 years ago when the "Stolen generation" first became a matter for concern. Although they make up only 3% of the population they make up nearly a quarter of all people incarcerated. Family violence is rampant amongst our indigenous people but wasn't known 200 years ago.

 

Two hundred years ago they had extremely strict rule to manage their interactions- transgressions were punished by tribal spearing and beatings. Their society was very structured and everyone knew their places and occupied them. They didn't drink alcohol. No-one stole because they were the ultimate socialists and shared everything. Their was no incest or child abuse. There were no hard drugs. They had a highly complex culture and their own language, but probably spoke 3 or 4 other languages fluently (many still do). And they could survive in country that caused the white folk who followed them to perish frequently.

 

They suffered horrendous massacres at the hands of these "civilised" whites, contracted horrible diseases because of their contact with them, and lost their lands to them.

 

This is not an excuse for the offending that occurs today but perhaps, just perhaps, some of them think it's fair to "collect the rent" now and then?

 

I don't think the current situation is cause for Laughter.

 

Kaz

 

Google "Conniston massacre" on Wikipedia and have a white read about one of the many "interactions" that our European ancestors inflicted on them

 

 

[Guest Nightmare1]

There was a report delivered today stating that aboriginals are over represented in our penal system. 25% of prison inmates are aboriginal. A magistrate has come out and said the high incarceration rate is because they commit crimes. Shame on her for saying such a thing!We should do something about this high number of aboriginal prisoners, so I am asking you, if you are white to go out and commit a crime. It does seem to be the only way to redress the balance.

Shame on her you say??!! She speaks the truth. Take it from a person who knows his stuff in this field, those people have been locked up because a jury have found them guilty of committing a crime or crimes, not for anything else!

[Guest Nightmare1]

And some people commit crimes because they are seriously unwell, destitute, homeless, come from a dysfunctional family or have never known anything different and they need to survive.

They have no sense of optimism for the future because they can see no future. They are the second or third generation in perpetual unemployment. They don't have the resources, physical or intellectual, to change their circumstances and they therefore have no self-esteem whatsoever. Instead they are easily coerced into using alcohol and drugs to make themselves "feel better" and they end up in the criminal justice system

 

But that's ok...goal will fix it for them...if they don't suicide first.

 

The rates of suicidality amongst our Indigenous communities is nothing short of shameful. The perpetuation of paternalistic and demeaning measures to control their incomes will never teach them to manage their own affairs. The rate at which their children are removed from families is now worse than it was 70 years ago when the "Stolen generation" first became a matter for concern. Although they make up only 3% of the population they make up nearly a quarter of all people incarcerated. Family violence is rampant amongst our indigenous people but wasn't known 200 years ago.

 

Two hundred years ago they had extremely strict rule to manage their interactions- transgressions were punished by tribal spearing and beatings. Their society was very structured and everyone knew their places and occupied them. They didn't drink alcohol. No-one stole because they were the ultimate socialists and shared everything. Their was no incest or child abuse. There were no hard drugs. They had a highly complex culture and their own language, but probably spoke 3 or 4 other languages fluently (many still do). And they could survive in country that caused the white folk who followed them to perish frequently.

 

They suffered horrendous massacres at the hands of these "civilised" whites, contracted horrible diseases because of their contact with them, and lost their lands to them.

 

This is not an excuse for the offending that occurs today but perhaps, just perhaps, some of them think it's fair to "collect the rent" now and then?

 

I don't think the current situation is cause for Laughter.

 

Kaz

 

Google "Conniston massacre" on Wikipedia and have a white read about one of the many "interactions" that our European ancestors inflicted on them

Can I suggest you read a book called "Fatal Shores" by Robert Hughes, he paints quite a different picture of Aboriginal life prior to the arrival of Captain Cook.

[kaz3g]

Report calls for overhaul of the way Indigenous people are sentenced

[kaz3g]

Can I suggest you read a book called "Fatal Shores" by Robert Hughes, he paints quite a different picture of Aboriginal life prior to the arrival of Captain Cook.

He was there, of course.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Guest Nightmare1]

If we want a non-racist justice system, and for that matter a non-racist society, we can not entertain the idea of changing the sentencing laws based on race or culture. Not much has been said about the Aboriginal Elders failure to keep their people from erring into criminal life, or teaching their people how to live appropriately in modern Australia. And yes it is sad.

 

A great answer, "he was there, of course" can't argue with that logic

 

 

[hihosland]

The Biggest Estate on Earth -by Bill Gammage

 

 

gives yet another view of life in Aust prior to the arrival of the pink people

 

 

a very well argued view at that

 

 

[kaz3g]

He looked at the history of the early occupation of Australia by the British through his eyes more than 210 years after the event.

 

Robert Studley Forrest Hughes AO was an Australian-born art critic, writer, and producer of television documentaries. His best seller The Fatal Shore is a study of the British penal colonies and early history of Australia.

 

Born: July 28, 1938, Sydney

 

Died: August 6, 2012, The Bronx, New York City, New York, United States

 

Children: Danton Hughes

 

Siblings: Tom Hughes, Geoffrey Hughes, Constance Crisp

 

Spouse: Doris Downes (m. 2001–2012), Victoria Hughes (m. 1981–1996), Danne Patricia Emerson (m. 1967–1981)

 

Perhaps it's time non-Indigenous Australians tried to look at it through Indigenous eyes, especially in this NAIDOC week?

 

It's not about "changing the sentencing laws" for a particular group but it is about refining those laws to achieve more effective outcomes for the benefit of all Australian society. All the evidence continues to point to the fact that three quarters of those in gaol would do better if offered real programs of education, training, apprenticeships, cognitive behavioural therapy, sporting opportunities, cultural and language development to foster some self-esteem rather than being placed in crook college where they learn to be bigger and better offenders.

 

But hey, what would I know?

 

Kaz

 

 

[bexrbetter]

They suffered horrendous massacres at the hands of these "civilised" whites, contracted horrible diseases because of their contact with them, and lost their lands to them.

That's what humans do, not "whites" exclusively by any stretch, and have been doing it for eternity to expand their own kind, Spanish, Mongols, Normans, Germanics, Vikings, Romans ect, ect.

 

You can damn those who would do these acts today, now that our cultures have changed to those standards, but that's the way it was before for which you have not only benefited, but that you even exist today.

 

It's not about "changing the sentencing laws" for a particular group but it is about refining those laws to achieve more effective outcomes for the benefit of all Australian society. All the evidence continues to point to the fact that three quarters of those in gaol would do better if offered real programs of education, training, apprenticeships, cognitive behavioural therapy, sporting opportunities, cultural and language development to foster some self-esteem rather than being placed in crook college where they learn to be bigger and better offenders.

Well I think you first need a country that's governed properly to get those values back into place.

 

When people themselves are struggling, such as housing and trying to survive week to week as many do now, it's quite natural for them to go into selfish survival mode and look down at helping anyone else.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Well said, Kaz. A visiting American criminologist recently said the only people we should be locking up are those we fear. Advice we should be listening to, before we end up with a mess like USA now has. Now even the Americans are looking beyond prison. Jails are being shut down and alternatives are being tried.

 

Compared to the cost of imprisoning a young person, proper education and training costs peanuts; when will our country learn?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Compared to the cost of imprisoning a young person, proper education and training costs peanuts; when will our country learn?

We just had an election, did you see anything remotely like this come up?

 

A certificate of marriage for Gays or a $100 family rebate are critical issues we should all be dwelling on, aren't they?

 

 

[kaz3g]

When people themselves are struggling, such as housing and trying to survive week to week as many do now, it's quite natural for them to go into selfish survival mode and look down at helping anyone else.

Very true Bex, but it doesn't mean that the plight of the most vulnerable should be a subject for humour.

 

As I said above, it's not to excuse the offending, rather it's about changing the environment in which there is a predisposition to offending and perhaps spending some of the billions being invested in new prisons on the changes would be a good first start.

 

In Victoria, the former government was "tough on crime" and we now see the number of women being imprisoned rising at more than 10% per year. The rates for men are almost as high. So the answer was to spend $760m on a new gaol and this is rapidly blowing out to that Billion figure without the additions to other gaols, the double and triple bunking of inmates and the installation of who knows how many shipping container-accomm units at the rural prisons like the one near where I live.

 

We, the taxpayers, should be asking what's wrong in our society that we spend more on a new prison than on a new hospital or half a dozen schools or we will go broke fencing off that section of society like they have in California.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

We just had an election, did you see anything remotely like this come up? ...

Spot on, Bex. Who sets the agenda? Politicians or the Murdoch empire? Why didn't the following issues get a mention:

 

Saving our lost generation- kids with no hope of permanent employment, home, family...you know, the stuff that made our country stable and secure. The riots have already started in other countries...

 

Getting everyone working. There's so much that needs to be done around the place, yet we pay fit, capable people just enough sit-down money to enrich Maccas and the breweries. (Go to Japan: they have armies of uniformed workers cleaning up, tidying roadsides, parks, etc. Our country is by comparison a pigsty.)

 

Developing new industries to replace those lost to globalisation. (Our world leading solar research gets more funding from overseas than from home!)

 

Reverse the cut backs to vital public institutions like the CSIRO, ABC, SBS.... Instead, there always seems to be money for new stadiums so unfit people can watch professional sports. (Look how that ended up in Rome...)

 

That better do for now, I'm getting that headache back...

 

 

[M61A1]

Maybe in Victoria almost everything is illegal. People are breaking the law every day because more stuff is illegal and we have more police than ever to catch them.

 

I do actually wonder what sort of system we have, I know a person who really should be in prison, with the offences he has committed, but somehow the police have failed, then I read in the paper of others who have caught doing 1/10th of his effort and they get several months or even years prison. It seems very inconsistent.

 

As far as humour goes, once we start telling people what they can or can't laugh at, we're beyond help.

 

 

[hihosland]

And when you privatize the prisons you create a well cashed up lobby demanding that more be built.

 

 

[Guest Nightmare1]

In a way I agree with you Kaz about why we would spend more on new prisons rather than hospitals, but we are starting to doubling them up now, most prisons are now way over capacity. When a sewage plant reaches capacity, you don't keep pumping Stinking High Influential Treasures into it, it will break down. Whether you like it or not, you have to build an other sewerage plant. Same goes with prisons, no one likes it, it stinks, but it has to be done.

 

The question should be, why are there so many more people entering the correctional system now? More than ever before, and way more out of proportion to the population growth. And most are retreads. Are there other influences which are contributing to what appears to be the breakdown of law and order in our society? Stuff like the increasing unemployment rate, people believing they are unemployable so it is easier to get what they want through illegal means?

 

It is interesting to note that MOST crime is drug related. Which in turn is directly related to the increased demand for medical services.

 

At the moment, the cost of keeping one prisoner behind bars is approximately $100,000 per year.

 

Education is not the answer to rehabilitation, they have been doing that for the last 15 years or more in Queensland, and it has not worked, the re-offending rate has increased to 80% or more. I think there is something to be said about making life tougher for prisoners, making life more uncomfortable for them, whilst they are incarcerated. Make it so unpleasant that they will not want to come back to prison. I am sure this can still be done humanely. This would encourage them to think twice before committing the next crime. The do-gooders do not seem to have the victims of crime or society in mind when they lavish out the prisoners "rights", and ultimately they do not help the prisoners address their criminal behaviours, they actually encourage them.

 

 

[M61A1]

I have had the misfortune of living amongst some of these "vulnerable" people. Vulnerable isn't a term I would use, there are plenty of more apt terms, I would throw in the word "opportunist' there somewhere. They appear proud of their lifestyle and actions, look down upon those who would earn an honest living and consider us stupid. They give lawyers and magistrates their best "not my fault" sob story while openly mocking the cops. They say whatever they need to say to get what they want.

 

I don't know what the answer is in this day and age, but I do know that whatever they're doing, it's not working, so more of the same will continue not to work.

 

 

[Guest Nightmare1]

Yes, I raised an eyebrow when I saw the word "vulnerable" in reference to criminals. They are anything but. I have met hundreds if not thousands of them in the course of my duties, and the trait that they all seem to have is selfishness. They seem to all lack empathy for others. Selflessness and thinking of others is a very rare commodity among prisoners.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Some good points Nightmare.

 

There are few cases of prison improving a person. I've been in a couple and have seen first hand that people too often come out worse than when they went in. No wonder, when we coop up a mob of young maladjusted males and give them no useful outlet for their frustrations.

 

We know that tossing more people into goal doesn't work, but inertia keeps us going down that road. Without a strong reform focus, there's a vacuum that will be filled by something; no wonder our goals are a breeding ground for Islamic extremism.

 

Those we lock up should be given useful work to do. As part of the rehabilitation process, a person needs to develop a sense of self-worth and useful skills. All prisoners should work to earn their keep. It costs more to administer, but it's an investment in people.

 

We should also be spending mobs more to keep at-risk kids out of the system. It's an investment, not an expense.

 

 

[skeptic36]

I've been in a couple

What did you do, and how did they catch you?

 

 

[Garfly]

I don't think it's poverty per se that prevents people stretching their thinking to see the world as others see it.

 

(More useful than hand-outs anyway).

 

As an Asian saying puts it: "You're better off with a poor person as a friend than a rich one."

 

The problem's more to do with poverty of imagination; lacking the wherewithal to think outside the 'common sense' realities supplied by our own sub-cultures (a fault of left-progressive mind-sets as much as right-conservative ones).

 

Bex has commented here before, for example, about our distorted Aussie attitudes to all things Chinese. Perspective is all.

 

To point to high numbers of aboriginals in jail is obviously not to claim the crimes weren't done. It's to bemoan what we've done, or haven't done, to the first Australians, as a group, to bring them to this sorry state.

 

Whether you reckon it's fair to share that worry is entirely up to you ... and/or your culture.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

What did you do, and how did they catch you?

A few visits to a mate in Long Bay for refusing to pay a speeding fine (he claimed the copper lied). A sobering experience to see so many hard men up close. Tragically, he went in as an idealistic innocent and came out mean and nasty.

 

Also taking at-risk kids into a prison on therapy sessions. It seemed to do both groups some good and after the ice was broken it was hard to tell my lot from the inmates (whose crimes included armed rob. and murder). I'd love to have follow-up data on how they all got on.