Who's working for themselves

[facthunter]

Running the country costs money. All the benefits we love to have, have to be paid for. Big country relatively small number of people to support it ( Just like New Zeeland). By and large there's no place better than here to live. Tax is optional for the rich. Kerry Packer told you that. The lower end of the socio economic scale lives from one pay cheque to another, has no way of avoiding tax except to barter or grow your own or do crime in some form, but can't afford a top criminal lawyer, so end up having free board and lodging at the communities expense and come out with a degree from BLUESTONE College, and a drug habit, and kids with the same tendencies. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

If the blllodi Government didn't throw OUR money away or give it away to a foreign country we wouldn't mind so much. LoL

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

I reckon spending 50 billion on useless submarines when this money could get us a decent hybrid fission/fusion power plant is just completely irresponsible.

 

But you are just too sensible to argue with Nev, and I actually do like living in a "rule of law" country. Sometimes I can be 10,000 ft over Gawler on a clear day and all of Adelaide is spread out just to the south and I think how great it is to live here.

 

So I will continue to pay rotten tax but I reserve the right to grumble about wasted government money... gosh, most drugs are probably bought with centerlink money. Bloody disgraceful and I agree with spacesailor.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Yep shortly about that on that scam climate change neil

 

 

[facthunter]

Change your sources of information Neil. Some of the truth is getting out despite their efforts. The oceans are more acidic. The glaciers, icebergs are melting and disappearing and the seas are rising and there's more CO2 in the atmosphere measured and confirmed, which has a PROVEN greenhouse effect. More severe weather events are caused by rising sea temperatures A ( A known relationship) and the energy from renewables is the CHEAPEST form by far. Despite the DISINFORMATION It's happening even in Queensland. More jobs than coal which would be automated and it's grandfather's remedy. the world is moving on. The SCAM is the domain of the deniers with vested interests in yesterdays solutions. They want to keep making money despite the damage caused to the countryside , people's health and the atmosphere. It's a new world of opportunity. The sun's energy can be harnessed by anyone. The stranglehold of the colliers and oil sheiks is over. Nev

 

 

[Bruce]

Well said Nev but I still don't know of an economic storage method for intermittent energy. There are lots of uneconomic ways.

 

The big breakthrough would be a truly cheap rechargeable battery. In the meantime , have a good look at the latest safe nuclear power ideas.

 

Personally, I would prefer the economic battery as it would free us from the big exploiters, but it just aint there.

 

 

[facthunter]

Coal is not flexible either. You can't crank it up and down quickly. The QLD set up involves exporting it South. With the basic costs of wind and solar demonstrably lower, you can afford the losses in pump hydro and other storage systems. Standby "anything" costs multiples of the best figures at the most efficient level of output. A ruddy great flywheel could store energy efficiently. We have hardly tried yet. The "Powers" have revelled in confusing the issue and will eventually pay for their erroneous (and very costly) ways. You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time. Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

Heard today that a record was broken in the USA... solar power produced for 2.9 cents per KwH, and wind power for 3.9.

 

Coal can't compete with that.

 

Apparently solar PV follow a kind of Moore's Law (that's the one where the number of transistors on a dense integrated circuit doubles every 2 years, and generally gets cheaper).

 

The price of solar has apparently dropped 90% since 2009 and will continue to fall, as will lithium-ion batteries which are being produced in greater quantities.

 

Battery farms like Elon Musk's will become more common I predict, which will help balance the system.

 

Energy companies are starting to panic as the writing is on the wall. As the price of solar and battery goes down, more and more households will depart the grid, which under their current (pardon the pun) system means the price gets hiked for the remaining houses connected. But that's only going to make solar PV even more attractive for them. The paradigm is close to breaking.

 

The losers, unfortunately, will be those who can afford it least - low income households and renters. Hopefully the government will do something sensible there - I can think of a no-interest solar PV purchase scheme where the government arranges solar on your roof for no up-front cost, and you pay off the system at the same rate that you would have paid an average of your last 4 quarters of power. Of course there'd have to be solid policy in place to avoid a repeat of the roofing insulation fiasco.

 

 

[Bruce]

but Marty, the cost of battery-stored solar is nowhere near 2.9 cents per kWh, and therein lies the problem.

 

 

[octave]

but Marty, the cost of battery-stored solar is nowhere near 2.9 cents per kWh, and therein lies the problem.

To compare batteries, we need to put them on a level playing field. The most common way is price per warrantied capacity. For example, the Powerwall 2 has a 37,800 kWh warrantied capacity, and costs (without install) $8750 on the Tesla website. Dividing the cost by the capacity gives us a price of $0.23 per kWh. Down below we have included the same figure for other batteries, which makes them easily comparable.

 

The Australian Home Battery Storage Buying Guide

 

 

[octave]

while a tesla power wall probably at this point could not be justified purely on economic grounds, as with any new technology early adopters and enthusiast will purchase these products and the price will fall and this is already happening. My first computer. cost $1200 and had 18 k of memory in the early 80s. No technology comes fully developed.

 

For anyone interested -

 

 

[Bruce]

I'll do some checking Marty but I doubt those figures. The battery which starts my Jabiru is 8.4 amp-hours at 13.2 volts which is 110 watt-hours and it cost about 100 dollars so that is about $1 per watt-hour or about 1000 dollars per kWh.

 

I noticed the big battery for SA was about half the price of what I can buy. That is about $500 per kWh.

 

There is about 2000 times the difference with your figure of 23 cents per kWh. It would be great if your figure were right but I doubt it. If you were right , a new car battery ( they go about 100 watt-hours) would cost about 2 cents.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Bruce, I never said the STORED solar was 2.9 cents, I said they hit that for solar - ie when the sun's shining. Remember that coal isn't stored either, you have to be burning it for the turbine to go.

 

 

[octave]

Calculating the cost of the battery isn't as simple as dividing its cost by its capacity but rather over its lifetime storage and takes into account how many times it can be charged and discharged and the depth to which it can be discharged. This is how it is usually calculated Calculating the true cost of energy storage

 

 

[Bruce]

The cost of solar and wind has to include the cost of providing power at the times when solar/wind is not operating.But if the alternative is there, why not run the alternative 24/7 and save the cost of the solar/wind?

 

That makes sense with some types of backup, but not with batteries.

 

My guess is that when you include the cost of backup, solar and wind become very expensive. Hydro seems the best backup system as it can be turned on fairly quickly. Why is Tasmania not putting heaps of wind-generators on their hilltops? New Zealand even more so.

 

I checked out the Tesla powerwall and it comes to $1.40 per watt-hour ( purchase price only, thanks octave), which is more expensive than what I buy from hobbyking at $1 per watt-hour.

 

( Mind you, this is a refined product which a carton-full of hobbyking batteries is not) .Also it only has 14kWh which would operate the fridge alone for just 24 hours. You would need a top-opening fridge ( 5kWh per day) to make this practical.for living off the grid.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Why is Tasmania not putting heaps of wind-generators on their hilltops? New Zealand even more so.

I think that the hydro schemes both here and in NZ produce pretty much enough to meet our needs. (Except when the silly b#stards go draining the dams dry to sell power to Vic.)

 

However I've heard something about proposed wind farms going ahead here which will be good.

 

Bruce I know you like nuclear but you do have to acknowledge the positives of solar and wind. Totally renewable, zero waste product (excluding end of life), totally safe (except for the occasional bird).

 

 

[Bruce]

I really wanted to have solar and wind for our house on the farm but alas that stuff is only for rich people.

 

What annoys me is the lunacy we see against nuclear power. It can be as safe as you want it to be.

 

Right now there are nuclear reactors in the very heart of Melbourne ( that US aircraft carrier is nuclear and probably has 2 reactors).

 

Yet the green lunatics, their labor party idiots and the poll-driven liberal weaklings have vetoed the very idea of a big nuclear power plant in outback SA.

 

So the potentially richest state in the world is becoming poor.

 

There are other lunacies around, but this is the worst.

 

 

[octave]

What annoys me is the lunacy we see against nuclear power.

I have no philosophical objection to nuclear power as long as it is safe and the problem of the long term storage of the waste is addressed. In comparing the merits of various sources of power it is important to address the cradle to grave cost of that method of generation. So it is fair to ask about the energy that goes into the building of a wind farm and the decommissioning cost of the wind turbines or solar panels or large scale battery storage. Like wise with nuclear we need to calculate the cost from cradle the grave of nuclear power the cost of storing and protecting the waste is great. Full-time armed guards for nuclear power stations Also the cost of the decommissioning needs to be accounted for The rising cost of decommissioning a nuclear power plant

 

This cost must include the price of storing and guarding the waste for thousands of years or until a method is found to safely dispose of the waste.

 

Renewable energy is often criticized for receiving subsidies whilst ignoring the subsidies offered to coal and gas power stations and nuclear, just have a look at Hinkley Point C power station Hinkley Point C nuclear power station - Wikipedia

 

I don't believe even the most enthusiastic fans of Nuclear power (fission) believe that there is a rational economically sound proposal for a such a plant in this country with our low population and our plentiful other options

 

"Sellafield currently costs the UK taxpayer £1.9 billion a year to run. The site’s reprocessing contracts are due to expire in four years but clean-up may take more than 100 years and cost up to £162 billion. Material housed here will remain radioactive for 100,000 years. This is Sellafield’s great quandary."

 

 

[spacesailor]

I had a quick look into going solar!.

 

My Idea was to have a good few panels on the roof, (secondhand) a nice new inverter (more modern = more efficiency) AND a secondhand fork-truck battery, costing about $1,400, (their price). Panels & battery about $2,000.

 

Three k,watts I was lead to believe would run all my "entertainment equipment" for the max time needed.

 

I just couldn't move that xxxx heavy steel encased battery. Tried my cheapo bag-trolley to move it, & it broke. Back to the drawing board.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Marty_d]

I just couldn't move that xxxx heavy steel encased battery. Tried my cheapo bag-trolley to move it, & it broke. Back to the drawing board.

 

spacesailor

Should've just left it in the fork truck until it was in position...

 

(sorry, couldn't resist!)

 

 

[spacesailor]

It was a Good laugh, as the delivery guy's put it back onto their truck, their hydraulic hoist blew a hose, only just got it on the decking, tied it down were it sat, right on the end of the truck.

 

And no cost to me, that was a surprise, as it was to be payed for on delivery.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[spacesailor]

I use solar (portable) whenever the fancy takes me!

 

using just two panels at 12v & nominal 8amps, I get 240volt/ 110volt and 12volts to power extension lamps (working under car) a couple of drill battery's whist keeping the battery bank topped up.

 

And isn't It a bit pricey: Lilium secures $112 million in funding to build electric flying taxi

 

spacesailor

 

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[Bruce]

Space, do you live off the grid? I was once off the grid at my hangar, and had a setup similar to, but not nearly as good as yours.

 

The limited life of lead-acid batteries made it quite expensive per kWh, but it worked to give me light and 12V power tools.

 

 

[spacesailor]

On the grid, but like the freebies from solar, All said that to power 3kw equipment needs large & expensive battery setup/inverter, but I find three 1kw inverter uses less than the single large inverter,(switch each item load on separately )

 

Might even put the Three panels on the roof

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

I've got 6 panels on my roof thanks to the SA govt years ago. I reckon they could be increased to 9 panels without paying for more electronic stuff, so I'm looking for 3 panels which fell off the back of a truck.