Palestine - 100 years of Arabs -v- Jews

[old man emu]

While doing some reading about my father's WWII infantry battalion I came upon a document entitled History of Disturbances in Palestine 1936 - 1939 {Pages 150 -168}. ( https://www.awm.gov.au/images/collection/bundled/RCDIG1021655.pdf )

 

At the time it was written (December 1939) it probably formed a background briefing paper for the officers of the 2nd AIF who were arriving in the Middle East with the 6th Division. It paints a good picture of the reasons for the conflict between the local Arab communities and the immigrating Jews.

 

Also to be found on Pages 131 - 149 is a description of British operations following the Arab rebellion of 1937.

 

Just for a chuckle, the collection also includes details of those men described as "Undesirables" and what became of them. My dad does not appear amongst them.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

100 years! This problem started between two half brothers just over 4000 years ago. And the Jews were in 'Palestine' way before the Arabs but just prior to that they spent a few years trekking about the Arabian peninsula.

 

 

[old man emu]

100 years! This problem started between two half brothers just over 4000 years ago. And the Jews were in 'Palestine' way before the Arabs but just prior to that they spent a few years trekking about the Arabian peninsula.

How about we keep the discussion contemporaneous and confine ourselves to what we have seen since the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

 

OME

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Upvote for the word 'Contemporaneous' This term used to be applied to the notes taken by a copper when you were being interviewed prior to electronic recording facilities. . .when you had committed some minor infraction of the law, such as, oh, I don't know,. . .a Motoring offence,. . .Genocide or summat. . . .and you had been read your rights, that anything you say may be taken down. . .etc. . . .

 

Since most police officers I have known ( not through any criminal connection I must add ) over the years, most of them can't spell, have a rather poor grasp of English Grammar and don't bother to write anything down any more, so when it's time for the court appearance, they are forced to 'Invent' what you said, so that it may be admitted in evidence. ( This from a friend who was a long time magistrate on the Cannock bench, when something confusing came up, or the accused denied saying something. . . regularly asking to see the officers' contemporaneous notes pertaining to the case,. . . and being told that he had, er, mislaid them. . . ) I feel SURE that not many police officers do this. . . .busy as they may well be. . . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Just seen a report on the aerial bombing of a hospital in Aleppo ( Syria ) which showed the injured and killed in the street outside. Terrible, except that the pictures of the damaged buildings and people were taken in Gaza, Palestine and were around four years old. It is important to understand the immense media propaganda war running in parallel with other wars I think.

 

 

[old man emu]

Phil,

 

Have a bit of sympathy for the poor Plod. Plods on the street in situations of gross understaffing. Although the Duty Roster at the Station might show large numbers on duty, during commercial business hours most of those on duty are backroom wallahs, and during the evening and night, the wallahs are tucked up in their pyjamas. In any one shift the street Plods have to deal with a wide variety of incidents from Lost Property to serious assaults. When the major crimes occur, Morse, Taggart and the rest of the suits swoop in to take the glory.

 

The Plod has to respond to all those 999 calls, and the ones going direct to the Station. Then, after wrestling with the oaf in the High Street who is full of p|ss and bad manners, and hauling him off to to the Charge Room and doing all the paperwork, poor Plod finds that the 999 and other calls for service have banked up because under staffing means that there is noone to take up the slack. Then the Inspector starts breathing down his neck because Mrs Murphy has rung back three time demanding that police stop McTavish playing his doof-doof music so loud.

 

Time to jot down some contemporaneous notes in his notebook? Fair suck of the sav. There's barely time to use a sheet off a lavy roll! Besides, the obnoxious oaf's going to cop a plea and the Magistrate is going to slap his wrist as punishment. If anything important ends up in court, Morse and Taggart will be the ones in the witness box.

 

OME

 

 

[Yenn]

They may be overworked but there are still the bad apples in the barrel. Some of the old ones couldn't lie straight in bed. no hesitation in making up a story, even if it wasn't rlevant to the case.

 

The other problem is brutality and that is here, not Arabs and Jews.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil,Have a bit of sympathy for the poor Plod. Plods on the street in situations of gross understaffing. Although the Duty Roster at the Station might show large numbers on duty, during commercial business hours most of those on duty are backroom wallahs, and during the evening and night, the wallahs are tucked up in their pyjamas. In any one shift the street Plods have to deal with a wide variety of incidents from Lost Property to serious assaults. When the major crimes occur, Morse, Taggart and the rest of the suits swoop in to take the glory.

 

The Plod has to respond to all those 999 calls, and the ones going direct to the Station. Then, after wrestling with the oaf in the High Street who is full of p|ss and bad manners, and hauling him off to to the Charge Room and doing all the paperwork, poor Plod finds that the 999 and other calls for service have banked up because under staffing means that there is noone to take up the slack. Then the Inspector starts breathing down his neck because Mrs Murphy has rung back three time demanding that police stop McTavish playing his doof-doof music so loud.

 

Time to jot down some contemporaneous notes in his notebook? Fair suck of the sav. There's barely time to use a sheet off a lavy roll! Besides, the obnoxious oaf's going to cop a plea and the Magistrate is going to slap his wrist as punishment. If anything important ends up in court, Morse and Taggart will be the ones in the witness box.

 

OME

 

Don't misunderstand me here OME, the Contemporaneous notes to which I refer were not taken, in My case, where one of our Club pilots was accused of a serious assault, in a public place, and there were witnesses - according to the police. He was arrested on the Monday morning,, after we had separatelly flown back to base and he was charged with this assault and I agreed to stand as a witness to the FACT. . . that he could not have committed the crime, if he was drinking in a beer tent at the Cranfield PFA rally 90 miles away, exactly at the time the alleged incident took place, along with myself and several other Club pilots.

 

The police treated me very badly, and warned me that if I was making a false statement 'To protect my mate' then I was 'going down the steps'. The officer who interviewed me took NO notes whatsoever, . . .just sat back in his chair and said. .. oh yeah,. . .a ha,. . .mmmm. . . .There appeared to be no tape recording going on and it was evident that the bloke had been tried and convicted already. .

 

1) I would never bear false witness for anyone in a criminal investigation. 2) it appeared fairly obvious to me that the Police were trying to nail this guy for something. . .Anything. .. maybe he had previous form ?. .. I never found out. But I was seriously harrassed in that interview, the officer tried to frighten me against standing as a witness but I was having none of it. Being the bloody aggresive bugger that I am.

 

I wrote out a statement and the officer took it. . . . On my way out, I turned around to the ignorant barstard and said,. ." if this EVER goes to court mate, you are effing toast, as I shall make a full statement to the court that you personally tried to interfere with a primary witness, and you'll end up on your bum picking up litter in the park".

 

I attended the court case wearing my wedding suit, complete with flared pants from 1970. . . ( jeeze, was THAT hard to squeeze into. . .) to be told by the Clerk of the court, and the Defendent's solicitor, that, since nine other independent witnesses had approached the police in defence of our 'Guy' that the CPS had dropped the case. . . .

 

My opinion of the British police has been at a low ebb since then. Most of the cops that I know have either left the service, or are intending to. . . . no backup from the judicial system, too much politically correct bollox, permeated by twots at the top parachuted straight in to the service form the Civil Service, having never been a proper copper on the street. . . and total politicization of what used to be the best police force ever. . . . They are more interested in policing 'Hate Crime' on ferkin twitter than going after the blokes who stole auntie Aggie's motabilty scooter. . . .or who rolled the 80 year old guy for his pension. . . . bloody sickening. . .world's gorn mad mate. . . .

 

 

[M61A1]

Don't misunderstand me here OME, the Contemporaneous notes to which I refer were not taken, in My case, where one of our Club pilots was accused of a serious assault, in a public place, and there were witnesses - according to the police. He was arrested on the Monday morning,, after we had separatelly flown back to base and he was charged with this assault and I agreed to stand as a witness to the FACT. . . that he could not have committed the crime, if he was drinking in a beer tent at the Cranfield PFA rally 90 miles away, exactly at the time the alleged incident took place, along with myself and several other Club pilots.

The police treated me very badly, and warned me that if I was making a false statement 'To protect my mate' then I was 'going down the steps'. The officer who interviewed me took NO notes whatsoever, . . .just sat back in his chair and said. .. oh yeah,. . .a ha,. . .mmmm. . . .There appeared to be no tape recording going on and it was evident that the bloke had been tried and convicted already. .

 

1) I would never bear false witness for anyone in a criminal investigation. 2) it appeared fairly obvious to me that the Police were trying to nail this guy for something. . .Anything. .. maybe he had previous form ?. .. I never found out. But I was seriously harrassed in that interview, the officer tried to frighten me against standing as a witness but I was having none of it. Being the bloody aggresive bugger that I am.

 

I wrote out a statement and the officer took it. . . . On my way out, I turned around to the ignorant barstard and said,. ." if this EVER goes to court mate, you are effing toast, as I shall make a full statement to the court that you personally tried to interfere with a primary witness, and you'll end up on your bum picking up litter in the park".

 

I attended the court case wearing my wedding suit, complete with flared pants from 1970. . . ( jeeze, was THAT hard to squeeze into. . .) to be told by the Clerk of the court, and the Defendent's solicitor, that, since nine other independent witnesses had approached the police in defence of our 'Guy' that the CPS had dropped the case. . . .

 

My opinion of the British police has been at a low ebb since then. Most of the cops that I know have either left the service, or are intending to. . . . no backup from the judicial system, too much politically correct bollox, permeated by twots at the top parachuted straight in to the service form the Civil Service, having never been a proper copper on the street. . . and total politicization of what used to be the best police force ever. . . . They are more interested in policing 'Hate Crime' on ferkin twitter than going after the blokes who stole auntie Aggie's motabilty scooter. . . .or who rolled the 80 year old guy for his pension. . . . bloody sickening. . .world's gorn mad mate. . . .

Google "Hurley" with Gold Coast police.

 

 

[old man emu]

It saddens me, too, to see that the police force in which I served for 28 years is not the one I joined. How can it be when you see that it is recruited from a generation which has no self-respect, or respect for others.

 

I will admit that I saw changes for the better in some areas over my years, such as elimination of drinking on duty, introduction of electronically recorded interviews, realistic setting of bail etc. However, a police force is only as good as its members, and the worst thing that ever happened was the introduction of Harvard Business School-type management and promotion-on-merit.

 

The first was dropped on supervisors without providing them with proper instruction and explanation of what it all meant, resulting in over attention to KPIs and the ignoring of the core business - maintaining community peace and wellbeing. The second lead to people hiding away in back offices spending their days polishing their resumes, and leaving the core business to those who wwere either too junior to apply for higher rank, or who actually enjoyed interacting with the community. As a result, the higher echelons have become filled with those who have no insight into the practicalities of day-to-day policing. It also lead to nepotism, or favoritism when it came to promotion. Then, when the top dog either retired or failed, those hanging on to his coat tails were cast adrift, and mauled for anything they had done which adversely affected others.

 

I agree that the day of the "kick 'em in the ars and send 'em home" street cop have gone. But it's amazing how many members of the community want a return to that sort of discipline to be applied to the young.

 

OME

 

 

[Bikky]

"kick 'em in the ars and send 'em home"

I've been at the tail end (pun more or less intended) of this type of treatment as a youth and it did me no harm at all. Sometimes a quick and appropriate demonstration of consequences is better than being officially charged, in my opinion!

 

 

[M61A1]

The problem is that these days a lot of the parents side with their own little offender, whether it be against police, school teachers or welfare officers.

 

I have no problem with promotion on merit, just what they define as 'merit". Handing out a set number of fines, or breathalizing a certain number of people is not merit.

 

Real merit is reflected in the road toll in your area and how little crime there is, along with the people's confidence in dealing with you.

 

So, with that in mind, the road toll here is crap, crime is not great, but when it happens, it's almost never accounted for, and no-one has confidence that going to the local cops will actually achieve anything other than being made to feel you've wasted your time.

 

Generally speaking I see the VLAD laws here in QLD as an extension of the turf wars at the Gold Coast between two groups of thugs....bikies and cops.

 

 

[old man emu]

I have no problem with promotion on merit, just what they define as 'merit".

It seemed to me that "merit" as defined by the NSW Police was the ability to put down on paper the tune that you lew your own trumpet to. As I said earlier, hiding away in back offices spending days polishing resumes does not indicate that a person has an understanding of what is required at the coal face to preserve the peace and safety of the community one works in. All it shows is an ability to play the political and diplomatic games to enable you to climb on the backs of those who are actually serving the community.

 

Real merit is reflected in the road toll in your area and how little crime there is, along with the people's confidence in dealing with you.

I agree with that statement. The problem is that governments have decided that the motoring public is in fact the goose that lays the golden egg, and have targeted motorists as the Treasury's major source of revenue. The original role of the Traffic Branch was to improve driver behaviour to improve safety. This requires that the offending motorist's actions be brought to their attention as soon as possible after the incident and some remedial action taken. Unfortunately, senior police became gun shy about the possibility of uniformed police copping quids if they did not hand out tickets. So the right, and it is a right of a constable, to use discretion in how to deal with an offence was virtually taken away due to poor management and training.

 

Will the road toll ever be reduced to zero? NO!. Can it be reduced? Of course it can. In the early 1980's the NSW road toll was regularly around 1200 per year. Now it is down to roughly 300 due more to better roads, fewer drunks and more crashworthy cars. The problem with those managing traffic policing is that they have no ability to analyse logically the amounts of road safety data available to them; to set attainable road safety goals; implement suitable programs to change driver behaviour, and to review the results. While ever these leaders lack those abilities, we'll have speed limits that are incompatible with real traffic conditions and robotic means of enforcement that deliver the warning or punishment long after the knowledge of the incident has been forgotten by the offender.

 

OME

 

 

[M61A1]

It seemed to me that "merit" as defined by the NSW Police was the ability to put down on paper the tune that you lew your own trumpet to. As I said earlier, hiding away in back offices spending days polishing resumes does not indicate that a person has an understanding of what is required at the coal face to preserve the peace and safety of the community one works in. All it shows is an ability to play the political and diplomatic games to enable you to climb on the backs of those who are actually serving the community.

 

 

I agree with that statement. The problem is that governments have decided that the motoring public is in fact the goose that lays the golden egg, and have targeted motorists as the Treasury's major source of revenue. The original role of the Traffic Branch was to improve driver behaviour to improve safety. This requires that the offending motorist's actions be brought to their attention as soon as possible after the incident and some remedial action taken. Unfortunately, senior police became gun shy about the possibility of uniformed police copping quids if they did not hand out tickets. So the right, and it is a right of a constable, to use discretion in how to deal with an offence was virtually taken away due to poor management and training.

 

Will the road toll ever be reduced to zero? NO!. Can it be reduced? Of course it can. In the early 1980's the NSW road toll was regularly around 1200 per year. Now it is down to roughly 300 due more to better roads, fewer drunks and more crashworthy cars. The problem with those managing traffic policing is that they have no ability to analyse logically the amounts of road safety data available to them; to set attainable road safety goals; implement suitable programs to change driver behaviour, and to review the results. While ever these leaders lack those abilities, we'll have speed limits that are incompatible with real traffic conditions and robotic means of enforcement that deliver the warning or punishment long after the knowledge of the incident has been forgotten by the offender.

 

OME

I'm not entirely sure what the answers are around here, but I'm sure I could offer them some suggestions, and absolutely none of them would involve speed cameras, or even speed enforcement. Of several local fatalities, most would have been prevented by someone having the balls to remove their licence, probably years ago due to being physically incapable of, or just unwilling to control a motor vehicle. I see cops drive past people who are likely be the cause of their next fatal on a daily basis, but will go out of their way to hassle a 'P' plater (no I'm not one) for no real reason. Actually I have seen the police drive in a manner that would suggest that they are not much more than a passenger in their own vehicle.

 

The unhealthy focus on speed will never give much of a result, unless they could actually physically enforce driving a speed where a head-on collision wouldn't be fatal. These people are going to crash because they have no lane discipline, no spatial awareness or just don't give a rat's sphincter about basic right of way rules. I suspect that most of our local fatalities occur, when two of the same mindset oppose each other. There have been several around here that have occurred at very low speed and still been fatal, essentially because the perpetrator drove out in front of a semi-trailer, one of them actually drove into the side of it as it was going past.

 

But...anyway, you can count on after every crash, more speed enforcement and RBT's in the same old spots, while the drunk locals go the back way.

 

On other issues, I am familiar (too familiar) with a person who has had no licence for years, has written off two cars in the last two years, one into the back of a stationary semi, breached several different DVOs on multiple occasions, destroyed personal property and the list goes on, and somehow has not even managed a prison sentence.

 

My respect for QLDs finest was very limited before, it's contempt now.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil,Have a bit of sympathy for the poor Plod. Plods on the street in situations of gross understaffing. Although the Duty Roster at the Station might show large numbers on duty, during commercial business hours most of those on duty are backroom wallahs, and during the evening and night, the wallahs are tucked up in their pyjamas. In any one shift the street Plods have to deal with a wide variety of incidents from Lost Property to serious assaults. When the major crimes occur, Morse, Taggart and the rest of the suits swoop in to take the glory.

 

The Plod has to respond to all those 999 calls, and the ones going direct to the Station. Then, after wrestling with the oaf in the High Street who is full of p|ss and bad manners, and hauling him off to to the Charge Room and doing all the paperwork, poor Plod finds that the 999 and other calls for service have banked up because under staffing means that there is noone to take up the slack. Then the Inspector starts breathing down his neck because Mrs Murphy has rung back three time demanding that police stop McTavish playing his doof-doof music so loud.

 

Time to jot down some contemporaneous notes in his notebook? Fair suck of the sav. There's barely time to use a sheet off a lavy roll! Besides, the obnoxious oaf's going to cop a plea and the Magistrate is going to slap his wrist as punishment. If anything important ends up in court, Morse and Taggart will be the ones in the witness box.

 

OME

A look back at an old time policeman. . . .

 

[ATTACH]48009._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

P.C.Frederick Godwin of Gipsy Hill Police Station in London offers tea and sympathy to a man after a V-1 flying bomb attack has killed his wife and destroyed his home, 1944.

 

[M61A1]

Are you sure he's not taking the cup of tea, citing OHS regs about food in a demolition area?

 

 

[old man emu]

How about those of you who have never served your community as a policeman stop regurgitating these hate comments. Have you ever had to walk in a policeman's boots for a while?

 

"Don't tell me how to do my job. I don't come to your workplace and tell you how to sweep up." Billy Connolly

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[M61A1]

As you said...things have changed somewhat. I grew up respecting them, now, having had to deal with them, I find nothing to respect. It's nothing personal against you, just how I see things based on my personal experience. To say that they "serve" their community would be a gross overstatement. Many of the ones I have had to deal with are entirely self serving, and undeserving of authority or respect. Respect has to be earned, not commanded.

 

The problem needs to be sorted and refusing to talk about, or acknowledge any problem just means it will continue to get worse.

 

As for the Billy Connolly quote....sometimes feedback is a good thing.

 

 

[old man emu]

As I said, it's a generational thing. Try finding a person under 30 years of age who is not "entirely self serving, and undeserving of authority or respect".

 

No Diploma in Policing is ever going to change the behaviour of people who have never had an upbringing that develops respect for other people.

 

 

[M61A1]

Yes, I could go on a rant about diplomas. I've been in aviation maintenance for pretty much all of my working life, and their CERT whatever and supposed competency based training is not producing better skilled tradies/maintainers.

 

Had a lot to do with "Family Services" during some time as a foster carer....nothing positive to say about their bunch of educated little girls with certificates and no life experience either.

 

 

[Yenn]

OME walking in a policemans boots has one big advantage, He will not be able to catch you.