Keep your Theist/Atheist arguments here

[nomadpete]

I wonder if we are encouraging the believers a liitle too much.

I do have a few good friends who rely heavily on religion to ease their psychological suffering, (life has dealt them a really bad hand) and it works for them, so the subject never arises between us.

I have family members who spend a lot of time on their religion. They have fortunately stopped trying to save me, but I an annoyed that they have distressed my grandchildren with frightening stories about grandad burning in hell for eternity. I think that is plain cruel. As an agnostic, unlike the fervent religious folk, I don't try to rock anyone's boat.

[facthunter]

I used to think it's all OK IF they don't force it on you, and in most religions they do just  that. It's just a matter of degree and what they would do if they  could has to be addressed because it's happening.. There are many different religions who all think theirs is the ONLY TRUE one and the others are Bull$#!t so whatever religion you are , the majority of the world thinks IT's BS.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I sent my kids to a Christian school - to be honest I am not even sure of the denomination. However, as an atheist couple (well, my partner does attend the Christmas and Easter services - more for the show), we decided to leave it up to our kids to determine what, if, anything they want to believe in. Both my teenage children have thanked us for that.. Both had to do religious studies until year 10; One (the more scientific minded) identifies as a deist and the other doesn't think too much about it.

 

There are no doubt some words of wisdom in the rule book (bible). OME has pointed out a few - observations of how humans behave, etc. But all it is is the alternate polity. I agree that people do get psychological benefit from private worship.. just as people get psychological benefit from being in a local pub socialising while they are ingesting toxins (alcohol). However, like many institutions, they served their purpose in society at the time and stage of development., despite the problems with them. However, it's sort of like saying it is OK to wolf whistle women in the street now because we had been doing it back in the 70s (incidentally, played my daughter Skyhooks Living in the 70s last night.. she was mortified) and no doubt, well beyond and no real apparent/visible harm came of it.

 

No doubt, at times, we all need the reassurance that there is something better there, who can hear our pain, and help us heal. Religion was there prior, but psychological, psychiatric, and neurosciences seem to be more appropriate - especially with the understanding of neuro-plasticity - although these sciences have had a chequered past.

 

I was speaking to a Brazillian woman many years ago (she was quite attractive and I was quite single). In a very short period of time I could see it would never work... they are, to be plain, bat-poop crazily brainwashed about religion... So, I decided to have a bit of a play and started questioning the basis of her faith. It transpired that  she had been somewhat abused by the clergy of her faith as  child and she blamed herself fot it because the clergy was a messenger of god... FFS! When I tried to say how can a god want to do this to young teenagers, what makes him a messenger, and how was it her fault, she cried a bit, but couldn't shake the faith (not that someone brainwashed like that would in a single discussion).

 

And I think that's the rub.. whether its pollies, schools, religions, or any other institutions.. .if they didn't close ranks but accepted sometimes rotten apples come through and dealt with them properly, they may be able to keep the faith longer.

[facthunter]

IF some one's talking to God there's not much point in talking to them on some issues. The answer is usually "It's in the Bible" which is written by People and printed by People,( Including Murdock who has a monopoly on the St James Version) but is still the "Absolute word of God".  and you have to be careful WHICH words you hang your hat on, because there's plenty of contradictions and "Bits" you just couldn't take literally.. (Like eating your own children in Leviticus.). for People fond of quoting other sections of Leviticus.

  Churches take money from people promising their function as gate-keepers to Heaven makes it an investment or even a requirement. We have no way of checking if that is true.. Plenty of adherents behave in quite reprehensible ways which would appear quite divergent from the teachings of Christ.  who had quite specific penalties for those who put "Stumbling Blocks in the way of Children". Nev

[Yenn]

Those who practice religion are deluded or corrupt. The deluded think that anyone who does not follow their religion is a lesser person and cannot be trusted to behave properly. The corrupt ones think that they can do whatever they like and God will absolve them.

Those who preach religion should not be trusted, just look at the crimes against children committed by those people.

Our governments are aiding the corrupt religious people in that they allow religions to operate above the law and also to not pay taxes or rate, while at the same time ensuring that they will not be held accountable for their evil ways.

I have known many good people who profess to be Christian, but they still seem to consider me a lesser person because I don't go along with their ways.

Stupidity seems to be one of the requirements for religion. Why would people go and pray to their god, because he delivered them from a cyclone, for example. They don't seem to realize that the cyclone is the work of their god in most cases.

 

[facthunter]

Cyclones are just natural occurrences where We have tipped the scales a BIT. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are natural also. The Planet we have is still a place we can live on whereas most other known planets (around "near" stars) would be rather less comfortable in MANY ways. Cosmic rays, temperature and composition of the atmosphere and water and oxygen and all the other elements. The universe has more extremes that we could NOT cope with and could be referred to as "Hostile". We can't really blame God for such things. To  create or render something ineffective would have to defy known laws of Physics and there's NO evidence of such things ever happening.. Same with predestination. You might be inclined to believe in it but consider the difficulty of managing things to bring it about..I don't think any of us are that important, in the big scheme of things.  Nev 

[old man emu]

I always thought that the reason there is an Old testament and a New Testament is that the Old Testament, among other things, described the covenant (agreement) between God and the Hebrew people entered into at Mt Sinai after the Exodus. That covenant was renegotiated by through Christ and the old one lapsed, leaving us the philosophy recorded in he New Testament.

 

Both Old and New Testaments also carry historical records, but it seems that the historical recording by the Hebrews ended about the time of Christ, or maybe after the destruction of the Temple by he Romans. The New Testament doesn't record much history beyond the lifetimes of the Apostles and St Paul.

 

So, with that idea in my mind, I don't like to see  some concepts from the Old Testament thrown up to deal with modern situations. I'd rather follow the philosophy of Christ - Love they neighbour - than be a slave to what might have been useful in a pre-Christian society.

 

Do I believe in "God"? First I need to know if there is a "God" and I know that I won't find out until I die.

[Marty_d]

If both team's supporters are praying for victory, how can there be a winner and a loser?

 

My view of it is:

 

Terrible things happen to innocent people, including children, every day.  So if there is a god, then either:

 

1) He/she/it has no ability to influence events on Earth, ie not omnipotent.

2) He/she/it doesn't know everything that happens on Earth, ie not omniscient.

3) He/she/it doesn't care about what happens on earth, so not worth praying to.

 

In any case there is no logical reason to believe in a god, because it just adds another layer of complexity to the universe without explaining where the god itself came from.  Occam's Razor should be wielded. 

[willedoo]

13 hours ago, Marty_d said:

If both team's supporters are praying for victory, how can there be a winner and a loser?

 

My view of it is:

 

Terrible things happen to innocent people, including children, every day.  So if there is a god, then either:

 

1) He/she/it has no ability to influence events on Earth, ie not omnipotent.

2) He/she/it doesn't know everything that happens on Earth, ie not omniscient.

3) He/she/it doesn't care about what happens on earth, so not worth praying to.

 

In any case there is no logical reason to believe in a god, because it just adds another layer of complexity to the universe without explaining where the god itself came from.  Occam's Razor should be wielded. 

I've often wondered about the fact that a God has such enormous power to be able to create the world and universe in seven days, yet lacks the skill and ability to fix cancer. There may be a God for all I know, but if it does exist, certainly nothing like the one in the bible.

[Old Koreelah]

[Yenn]

God put us here to feed the cancer virus. Without us there would not be enough food or the virus to survive and God believes in survival of his chosen race, ie The cancer.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I like Dawkins' view that the Abrahamic god is " the worst character in all fiction" He is nasty, misogynistic, genocidal,capricious, jealous and several other nasty things I can't think of right now.  Its a good thing, think I, that he is only a fictional character.

Some time ago, I tried to get any creationists out there to debate with, but it turned out that nobody was there. To be honest, what I really wanted was to make fun of them.... for example, is the firmament a hazard to Jabirus or not?

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

PS...  We know what its like to be dead...  what were we doing for the millions of years before we were born ?

[facthunter]

Evolving. and it's still happening not necessarily for the best. MAN created a god in his own image because he needed one  because of the conceit that his life is too important to JUST DIE.  Our DNA is shared by many  creatures.that go way back in time.  Every ONE of us is a miracle . We (individually) would not be here IF there was one break in our ancestry. Nev

[Marty_d]

Yep, just being here means you're a winner.  If the sperm in second place had put on a spurt of speed (pardon the imagery), then you wouldn't be you.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yes.. But sadly, traditions die hard. I am still amazed at the continual loyalty to whoever's god it is - over many centuries and 2 millennia - and for so little return.

[facthunter]

An Atheist has no "invisible" means of support. . IF you've got god and are going to heaven why make it hell on earth for others who don't share your "beliefs" ?  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

[Bruce Tuncks]

Apparently the evolution of people has never been so rapid as it is now, except as Nev says, it is in the negative direction.

We are keeping people alive to breed who would not have lived in stone-age times...  The percentage of the population with poor eyesight is climbing rapidly.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Er.. sadly (or not so), I fit in the poor eyesight vategory.. (Can get a Class 1 renewal - just, but would fail a class 1 initial).

[Bruce Tuncks]

Not necessary for you to go Jerry... would you have survived in stone-age times is the test  had in mind. I reckon very few stone-age types needed a class 1 medical. But bugger it I am now over 75 and (they say) I need a yearly medical just to continue to fly the Jabiru.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I don't intend to go anytime soon.. Although a QLD mate is over this weekend, so, the XXXX beers may  just about knock me off 😉

(Cool fact - the Castlemaine in XXXX is for the town in Vic, where it was first started.. sorry QLD'ers - of which I am a half-cast...)

 

Are you kidding me.. at any age to fly a RAAAus you need a medical.. What sort is it.. Over here, we need a medical on LAA (Equivalent of RAAAus).. but it is a self declaration..

[Bruce Tuncks]

Before you reach 75, the medical consists of ticking a box that says you are medically allowed to drive a car.

After this, the form has to be signed by a gp.

I found this out after the raaus sent me a letter saying how I needed a biennial flight review, and I was trying to find a local ( within 100k anyway ) instructor.

I'm still looking...

[Bruce Tuncks]

Jerry, are you familiar with the wild colonial boy? He was born in Castlemaine.

[pmccarthy]

7 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Jerry, are you familiar with the wild colonial boy? He was born in Castlemaine.

He really was. John Doolan became a troubled youth in Bendigo and was sent to prison for a good long stretch by Judge Macaboy. It has all been researched and a book written.