Keep your Theist/Atheist arguments here

[eightyknots]

The original Drifters

[ATTACH=full]46915[/ATTACH]

I thought this was the original drifter:

 

[ATTACH]48045._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

(this Drifter is for sale on eBay)

 

 

[nomadpete]

Wow, a minidrifter

 

 

[old man emu]

If Atheists don't hold with spiritual beliefs, does that mean they don't believe in the Spirit of Christmas?

 

 

[dutchroll]

I personally hate Christmas these days. It wouldn't bother me if it disappeared off the face of the Earth forever.

 

The reason for this is not that I hate the fundamentally good idea of having an annual celebratory occasion where families get together for a jolly old chinwag, a fair bit of booze, and a bit of a feast, but for the reason that it has become so grossly commercialised that it's now quite ridiculous.

 

However I always wish people a Merry Christmas. If it means a lot to them, then good on them and I'm not going to spoil it. Same goes for any other religious or cultural festival.

 

If the commercialisation was dialled back a few notches - which it never will be - I would probably enjoy it again.

 

 

[octave]

If Atheists don't hold with spiritual beliefs, does that mean they don't believe in the Spirit of Christmas?

I am not sure what the spirit of Christmas is. To my ex colleague Rod (a very committed Christian) it is purely a religious observance, to my less committed christian friends it is both it is both a religious observance and a time to get together with family. Many of my atheist friends celebrate christmas or perhaps yuletide.

 

As an adult I moved interstate from my family and my partner and I would travel back for christmas to spend with my family and her family. In 1985 we built a house and finally moved in on the 24th of december 1985. We spent that christmas arranging furniture and so did nothing special for christmas. This set the pattern, we then did nothing special for christmas other than perhaps drink nice wine and cook a nice meal. Occasionally we would be invited to dinner with friends which was quite nice. After the birth of my son we moved to a large property and and we were too busy building our house to bother with christmas. When my son was about 6 he asked us if we could have a christmas tree and presents which we happily agreed to. Interestingly the next year when we asked if he wanted to celebrate my son's attitude was "nah, been there, done that".

 

The notion that being an atheist precludes you from celebrating the end of the year or yuletide or Isaac Newton's birthday or just the plain old commercial christmas makes no sense to me. I loathe sport but will happily accept a day off for the Melbourne cup and the AFL final. I do tend to rebel against any forced celebration though, I will not wrap myself in an Australian flag and have lamb at a BBQ on Australia day yet this is the country I choose to live in.

 

I saw a story on the news about how financially tough some families found christmas, I assume because they thought they needed to spend more money than they could afford. I find this hard to understand, why not just express your love for your friends and family rather than stressing over turkeys, trees or presents.

 

I usually post these two videos on my facebook page every christmas because they sum up my own personal attitude.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Bw2ZeQcHw

 

 

 

Anyway OME I hope you have a great DEC25, Christmas, Xmas, Yuletide or celebration of the birth of Isaac Newton. But mostly I hope you enjoy the company of you\r loved ones.

 

Cheers

 

Octave

 

 

[Marty_d]

If Atheists don't hold with spiritual beliefs, does that mean they don't believe in the Spirit of Christmas?

Depends on your definition of "spirit of christmas". Personally I think christmas is for the kids; we spoil them a bit, get them nice presents, get presents for family & friends kids, have too much food and a few drinks. So if the "spirit" is giving and getting together with family, sure thing.

 

I don't think there's anything particularly christian about christmas. Sure, they've hijacked the old Midwinter celebration, said it was Jesus's birthday and made up the whole story about the virgin impregnated by god (best excuse for an embarrassing pregnancy I've ever heard!) - but at its core it is the old European celebration that the cold short days are coming to an end and spring's on its way.

 

Best christmas we've had was in Germany in 2006. We stayed with a friend of my wife's and her family. They had the real tree with real candles on little holders on it, gifts on christmas eve, traditional Yule log cake, lots of Jagermeister, and despite the language barrier, lots of laughs and bonhomie. I think they were christian but there wasn't any element of that in the celebration.

 

 

[old man emu]

Marty_d, I agree that the best Christmas is a European one, no matter what country. It really is a celebration from pre-historic times when Mankind was able to apply its observations of the seasons to celebrate the end of long nights and the coming of long days. Here in Australia, the solstice just indicates that the days will shorten, however, since the weather lags behind the calendar, the solstice is just a sign of increasingly hot weather. That indication destroys the feelings of coziness that you find in Europe.

 

Actually, I was trying to provoke the atheists into saying that they believed in Santa, an obviously spirit being.

 

OME

 

 

[Marty_d]

Actually, I was trying to provoke the atheists into saying that they believed in Santa, an obviously spirit being.

 

OME

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm kind of the opinion that if you find one supernatural being implausible then why would others be any different!

 

Funny thing though, I do get twinges of hypocrisy when making up stuff about "ringing Santa if you don't behave!!" etc. I was having a discussion about the tooth fairy with my 6yo today, he just lost a tooth so will be finding $2 in its place tonight. (Reminds me, better go do that.) He started getting technical... "Yes, but HOW does the tooth fairy know that my tooth has just come out? And how will she find our place?" (The second one was easy, GPS and/or Google Maps).

 

The 8yo spoke up and said "I don't think she even exists - it's probably just Mummy or Daddy putting the money there!"

 

 

[octave]

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm kind of the opinion that if you find one supernatural being implausible then why would others be any different!

Funny thing though, I do get twinges of hypocrisy when making up stuff about "ringing Santa if you don't behave!!" etc. I was having a discussion about the tooth fairy with my 6yo today, he just lost a tooth so will be finding $2 in its place tonight. (Reminds me, better go do that.) He started getting technical... "Yes, but HOW does the tooth fairy know that my tooth has just come out? And how will she find our place?" (The second one was easy, GPS and/or Google Maps).

 

The 8yo spoke up and said "I don't think she even exists - it's probably just Mummy or Daddy putting the money there!"

I really admire smart kids!

 

 

[old man emu]

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm kind of the opinion that if you find one supernatural being implausible then why would others be any different!

Goblins, brownies, dwarves, gnomes, imps, kobolds, fairies, elves, sprites, ogres, leprechauns, bunyips. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy

 

 

[Yenn]

Having lived in the UK I cannot understand that Christmas has anything to do with the days getting longer and better weather coming. January and February are far bleaker times than December. If that theory is to hold water christmas should be at the end of Feb.

 

But then again as it is a religious event it doesn't have to be logical, we just have to believe.

 

 

[old man emu]

Days getting longer - yes.

 

Weather getting warmer - no. The typical weather for the season lags behind the soltices, so the really cold weather in the Northern Hemisphere would be expected from January onwards, as the really hot weather would be expected in the same months in the Southern Hemispehere

 

 

[M61A1]

If Atheists don't hold with spiritual beliefs, does that mean they don't believe in the Spirit of Christmas?

Pretty much....I enjoy the holiday that goes with it. I think that the best thing about Christmas day is that while all the other people are stressed out from spending truckloads of cash, entertaining rellies they hate, for that one day, I can go places without the usual clods in the way. Whether it's a nice drive or ride, or going flying, it seems so much more pleasant with less people around, and that makes me feel much more at peace.

 

That could possibly just be that the buildup to Christmas, with the mercenary shopping women dragging their husbands around as pack animals while they shop, with their complete lack of courtesy, manners and driving skill, makes me feel very antisocial.

 

 

[nomadpete]

If Atheists don't hold with spiritual beliefs, does that mean they don't believe in the Spirit of Christmas?"

OME, I feel that you are making an erroneous assumption in your question. I am an athiest. I do not believe there are any gods. However there are times when I do feel a 'spiritual' connection with my surroundings. It is an irrational but never the less a very real, quite pleasant 'connected to everything' emotion. I consider this to be a spiritual concept. Maybe the theists feel a similar connectedness but have a need to give it a supernatural persona (god)?

 

 

[old man emu]

. I am an athiest. I do not believe there are any gods. However there are times when I do feel a 'spiritual' connection with my surroundings. It is an irrational but never the less a very real, quite pleasant 'connected to everything' emotion. I consider this to be a spiritual concept.

That sounds very much like the explanation that Aborigines give for their connection to 'country'. I know that I feel happy when I go back to the place where I know I was conceived and subsequently grew up. Given that the Aboriginal culture is known to have existed without outside influence for over 40,000 years, maybe it is this connection with country that is the true basis for Mankind's spirituality, and that all the guff 'n' stuff that surrounds later spiritual activities of civilizations is the product of living in groups.

 

OME

 

 

[nomadpete]

A nomad spirituality vs the mob use of spirituality.?

 

In my case, I have absolutely no affinity for place of birth or ancestral heritage.

 

 

[M61A1]

The God Chemical: Brain Chemistry And Mysticism

[nomadpete]

Nah. I rather think that the religious thing is a residual tribal instinct, for which we have no particular need in this 'modern' society.

 

Humans try to kid themselves that they are not really just another ordinary flesh and blood mammal, primarily driven by basic instincts just like other mammals are.

 

 

[Bruce]

OME, you are right in that there is no scientific explanation to the question of " why should there be anything?".

 

This leaves room for a god, but logic does not allow for the sort of god of the Koran or Bible.

 

And Nomadpete is right in saying that we are just mammals. There is nothing we do, including worshiping gods, that is not completely explicable with the sciences of psychology and evolution.

 

 

[old man emu]

I was listening to a religious program on the radio on Sunday and the speaker was talking about the riches Mankind could get through the worship of (the Christian) God.

 

It made me try to recall what Christ is reported to have said in his preachings. Although I can remember something about "my Father has prepared a house for you ..." I don't seem to recall Christ pushing the riches bit. Given the current affairs of the eastern Mediterranean from Augustus (27 BC) to Nero (68 AD), I suspect that this emphasis on riches was not part of Christ's philosophy, but the product of human impact during the infancy of the cult.

 

Once again, the prophet's message has been hijacked by those with their own agendas.

 

OME

 

 

[Marty_d]

I think the new evangelical mobs (Hillsong etc) openly celebrate financial success as an indication of god's favour. Pretty sure the scientologists actively target wealthy & famous people too, helps their prophet margins...

 

 

[old man emu]

I agree with you here

 

I think the new evangelical mobs (Hillsong etc) openly celebrate financial success as an indication of god's favour.

I think that that type of media mass hysteria religion is a front for a big con by the originators. Look at the likes of Jimmy Swaggart. Taking the widow's mite to provide themselves with a luxury lifestyle.I see that the evangelicals like Hillsong and Swaggart now have channels on Foxtel here.

 

And it is not just these "christian" organisations. Look at the living conditions that the majority of Muslims endure in their own homelands and then compare it to the obscenely opulent cities of the oil sheikhs, like Dubai. Where is the sharing of God's (Allah's) bounty there?

 

By the way, Marty, when referring to the deity of Jews, Christians or Muslims, the correct spelling is 'God' with the upper case, otherwise it will create confusion in the minds of the polytheists who have many 'gods'.

 

OME

 

 

[M61A1]

I agree with you here

 

 

 

By the way, Marty, when referring to the deity of Jews, Christians or Muslims, the correct spelling is 'God' with the upper case, otherwise it will create confusion in the minds of the polytheists who have many 'gods'.

 

OME

I will still spell them all with lower case despite autocorrect's insistence........god, muslim, christian or jew, the very same way I might with car or dog, lest they become confused and think that I think their god is real.

[nomadpete]

Yes, me too. I prefer to avoid using a capital "G" because in my grammatical perspective, god is a common noun, not a proper noun.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Technically, according to conventional english grammar rules, organised religions and their deities are proper nouns (Muslim, Catholic, Allah, Jesus, God, etc) and you won't find any grammar books saying otherwise. It has been that way forever. Doesn't matter whether you like them or not. "Allah" and "God" are referring to specific individual things and so just like "Peter" or "John" or "Cornelius" or "Brisbane Broncos" they are proper nouns. Likewise a "Muslim" or a "Catholic" is a proper noun.

 

I often de-capitalise deities just to make my own little point that I don't think they're very important, but it's semantic I admit.