Keep your Theist/Atheist arguments here

[old man emu]

As we study the various written word of the religions of Mankind, and align them with the timeline of Mankind's social organisation we soon discover that what we have today is an amalgamation of ideas and concepts of the several societies that developed and interacted when the knowledge we have in the 21st Century of the Universe and its workings were little known.

 

I recently watched a doco on the Egyptian Book of the Dead. You know the book. It's the mysterious one that contains the spells and incantations that bring to life every angry mummified Egyptian to wreak havoc on modern Man. 

 

Sorry, but that's the stuff of Hammer horror films. The Egyptian Book of the Dead is a term coined in the nineteenth century CE for a body of texts known to the Ancient Egyptians as the Spells for Going Forth by Day. After the Book of the Dead was first translated by Egyptologists, it gained a place in the popular imagination as the Bible of the Ancient Egyptians, and later as the source of Black Magic. In actual fact, the Book is more like "A Field Guide to ..." or The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

 

After the soul had been justified in the Hall of Truth it passed on to cross over Lily Lake to rest in the Field of Reeds where one would find all that one had lost in life and could enjoy it eternally. In order to reach that paradise, however, one needed to know where to go, how to address certain gods, what to say at certain times, and how to comport one's self in the land of the dead; which is why one would find an afterlife manual extremely useful.

 

Since the Isrealites had lived in Egypt for a long time, and Moses was raised in a royal household, knowledge of the book of spells could be expected. One thing in the Book that made its way into the Bible was the concept of the Negative Confession. When a person died, they were guided by Anubis to the Hall of Truth (also known as The Hall of Two Truths) where they would make the Negative Confession (also known as The Declaration of Innocence). This was a list of 42 sins the person could honestly say they had never indulged in. Since the Book was only given to a person during their funeral, its information was of no use in life. What Moses did was take some of the 42 sins and warn the Isrealites that they had a better chance of eternal life if they didn't commit these sins during their mortal life.

 

So here is an example of a borrowing by one society from the beliefs and customs of another.

[facthunter]

Religions discriminate against OTHER religions as well. I've experienced it personally and it's set me back massively. I didn't realise it at the time. I was too trusting.

 . Having a god doesn't make you virtuous. You might exhibit self righteous behaviour. (Christ doesn't like that. )  IF you have the secret of the afterlife that should be a sufficient reward. Making life HELL for a non believer is not my idea of the right thing or something you are even remotely entitled to do.  The majority of religions are Patriarchal. God is a MAN. Women cover their heads and obey their husbands. Not a bad set up if you can get it and you are a man.

 IF you are atheistic you are free of these left over remnants of a belief system from a bygone age where they killed scientists and burned witches in the absence of knowledge that most take for granted now.  There still those who believe the earth is flat and is the centre of the universe. Nev

     

      

[spacesailor]

They burnt those witches so we could have that haloween holiday.

Salem l believe, were dirty old men were Patriarchs.

spacesailor

[Marty_d]

13 hours ago, nomadpete said:

And via which media does this gem come to us?

Amazon Prime.  Worth signing up for the free month (if they still have it) and watching all 3 seasons.  

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

To be completely fair, nomad, I don't know of an evangelical christian either, unless you count the doorknocking types. Once I worked with a devout baptist, but he was far too stupid to argue with.

 

On this site,  I have been looking in vain for a genuine creationist. Alas, I doubt that there is any out there.

But there are plenty of countries with awful laws against atheists. And even in Australia, I reckon it was safer to tick the box " c of e" if you really wanted that job.

[nomadpete]

Bruce, I have experienced colleagues who have tried to initiate 'discussion' with me by starting with a one line Bible quote. Knowing them, I've sensed where it was leading, have politely deflected the conversation in a safer direction because I've found it best to simply avoid the risk of offending. Some (not all) have definitely treated me with indifference afterward. One particular manager, although not outwardly pushing his religion, had a reputation that 'Your chances of advancement will improve if you have a Bible on your desk'.

So I'd say that although it hasn't been dangerous or as common as it is in the middle eastern sense, I've seen religious discrimination against nonreligious workers..

 

Oh, and I doubt you would find a true fundamentalist creationist believer that would air their belief on this forum. Mainly because they are aware that their belief is a minority one, and minorities understandably find it unpleasant to try to justify their beliefs to a noisy majority.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

I have experienced colleagues who have tried to initiate 'discussion' with me by starting with a one line Bible quote

I admit to using quotes from the Bible, but that is because I see it as a well known piece of literature, in the same class as Shakespeare, Voltaire, Plato, even Matt Groening. 

 

Here's an example I could use in a debate about, you guessed it, centrifugal force. "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone ...”  The common meaning of this quote is that if you are not wrong, show it. An alternative is "put up, or shut up", but that's not classy enough for an erudite forum such as this.

[nomadpete]

Are you suggesting that my colleagues were only trying to discuss the difference between centrifugal force and centripetal force?

Oh, I must have so unfairly misjudged them! But I still didn't hold it against them. And that's a prerequisite for discrimination

[pmccarthy]

[facthunter]

OME that quote I take to mean that we are all sinners.  Let He  who is without sin, cast the first stone.  results in no one doing it. In a similar vein first remove the  mote from your own eye before you look at others. It's obviously a go at hypocrisy. Probably appropriate then just as it is now. Judge not lest ye too be judged.  God stuff even for atheists . Those with no invisible means of support. Nev

[Yenn]

Bruce I think you mean Dorkins and I agree that it is a good book. He brings up a pretty compelling argument against religion. The thing that stands out for me is that Christainity has the Ten Commandments, which I cannot remember offhand, but the first five I think show that God is very unsure of himself.

When we complain about the evils of religion all the believers seem to agree and say that the people doing those things are not really religious.

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

OME that quote I take to mean that we are all sinners.

I didn't mean anything more than the words quoted, which are published in a book known as The Bible have become part of the literary culture of the English-speaking peoples. That they have a meaning in the religious context and  the secular context is simply due to the fact that they are well known by both religious and non-religious people.  

 

Facthunter provides another quote from the same piece of literature that expresses and idea that is applicable to the secular as much as to the religious.

3 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Is that an antipodean, anthropomorphic arthropod? If it is a centipede, does that mean that if it had ten segments, each would be a millipede? 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The bible has the defect that it claims to be infallible and yet is full of internal contradictions.  

For example, the ten commandments could have counted rape, enslavement, torture  and child sex as things any sensible god would not like his faithful to pursue. They are conspicuous by their absence, yet there was room for them by having fewer " don't worship rival gods stuff".

Anyway, why not twelve commandments?

[facthunter]

You don't deliberately exceed the average intelligence requirement of you target audience. Actually a Jew  said "How much are they?" St Peter said "they are free" The Jew said "OK I'll take ten, then."  Nev

[onetrack]

We got 10 commandments because we have only 10 fingers to remember them on - unless you were born in some region where there was a great deal of inbreeding. Tasmanians, please stand up!

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

The bible has the defect that it claims to be infallible

Whoa there, Neddy! You are going to have to do some serious research to substantiate that claim. The Bible is nothing more than an anthology, a collection of selected literary pieces or passages or works of art or music of the Hebrew and Christian religious philosophies. It also contains historical records of the Hebrews.

 

The phrase, “Word of God” is also used of something that is said by God’s chosen spokesmen. The Bible says that God spoke to His people through the words of the prophets. These words consisted of ordinary language spoken through human beings. Scripture makes no distinction in the authority of the words that God directly spoke and those things that were spoken by His prophets. Everything that was said was considered to be the Word of God because God was their ultimate source. God used ordinary human beings and spoke through them in their own language to communicate the Word of God. Consequently, the words were to be obeyed. No mention of their being erroneous.

 

Nothing there about infallibility, the fact of never being wrong, failing, or making a mistake That's the spin that the priests put on them. It is based on the logic that if God is all-knowing, God cannot be fallible. 

[facthunter]

He wouldn't be a God worthy of the name if he was fallible. "HE" knows your thoughts too so that's going to embarrass a lot of believers on the final day of judgement.  Nev

[facthunter]

There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.  Get a seat in the front row,  for a good view. Nev

[facthunter]

I just got zapped by lightning. I better tone it down. Nev

[spacesailor]

" I reckon it was safer to tick the box " c of e" if you really wanted that job. "

Better to say I'm a Sunday TV church goer.

( wifey thinks l'm an heathen )

spacesailor

 

[Marty_d]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

We got 10 commandments because we have only 10 fingers to remember them on - unless you were born in some region where there was a great deal of inbreeding. Tasmanians, please stand up!

I would, but my extra toes get in the way.

[Jerry_Atrick]

16 hours ago, facthunter said:

"HE" knows your thoughts too so that's going to embarrass a lot of believers on the final day of judgement

Then, it's a miracle......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That I am still alive 😉

 

 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

18 hours ago, onetrack said:

We got 10 commandments because we have only 10 fingers to remember them on

Apart from Nos 1 - 4, which are rules for a religion, the other seven are for interpersonal relationships. What you have to remember is that the Isrealites lived in Egypt for a few centuries, not as slaves, but an accepted minority. Moses was supposed to have been brought up in the house of a high ranking Egyptian and eventually was employed in some important government job. In that position he would have been aware of Egyptian religion.

 

Part of the Egyptian religion was the journey to the afterlife, which entailed a dangerous journey to the Hall of Judgement, where a person's character was tested to see if they deserved eternal life. Part of that test was the recitation The Negative Confession (also known as The Declaration of Innocence), a list of 42 sins which the soul of the deceased can honestly say it has never committed when it stands in judgment in the afterlife. It was from that list of 42 sins that the Ten Commandments were distilled.

[nomadpete]

A revelation! Well it is, to me anyway.

 

When the first commandment says

"..have no other gods before me"

 

The commandments don't claim that there is only one god. The first commandment not only acknowledges the existence of other gods who are in competition, but it implies that those other gods are OK so long as they are not ranked before (above) the christian god.

 

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, nomadpete said:

When the first commandment says

"..have no other gods before me"

 

Don't forget that these Commandments were given to people who had been living in a country where polytheism was the norm. 

3 hours ago, nomadpete said:

The commandments don't claim that there is only one god.

A very interesting, and probably never stated interpretation. It does allow the Isrealites to live in many societies without religious aggression towards their non-Israelite neighbours. It's a bit like God saying, "You playing for my team. Don't go looking for a playing contract with another club."

 

I'm disappointed that we all seem to be conditioned by Christianity when we discuss stuff in the Bible. I'd love to hear what a person of teh Hebrew persuasion could add to the discussion.