Wot's happened in Bourke Street ?

[old man emu]

I interpret the man's behaviour after the stabbing of his brother by him ("allegedly " as we must say to comply with the Golden Rule of Law) as being a case of 'attempted suicide by police action'.

 

He clearly carried out multiple actions to incite police into taking a number of measures to bring his actions to an end, until their only recourse was to apply deadly force. Fortunately for the police involved, the 'deadly' part of the force did not eventuate.

 

Suicide by police action is a recognised phenomenon, especially in the USA where society seems to be more accepting of the use of deadly force by police in the right circumstances. I think this man used every available resource that he could access in order to incite the police. In the current paranoid climate, playing the Islamist terrorist card was just one of those resources at his disposal. In light of his antecedent behaviour, can any reasonable person accept his claims as being truthful?

 

OME

 

 

[Yenn]

Terrorist or not he seems to have terrorised people. Surely anyone who commits an act that causes people to flee in terror could be called a terrorist.

 

 

[Bruce]

What was the guy's source of income? Was he on drugs?

 

If he was on welfare and on drugs, that means the government was partly to blame.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

What was the guy's source of income? Was he on drugs?If he was on welfare and on drugs, that means the government was partly to blame.

I cannot know that Bruce. His family name sounds very Greek. . . I have not heard much about Greek terrorism, unless you go back into the years BC. . and that's debatable. . . it has been stated on here that he was on 'Ice' . . I gather that is another permutation of some pop culture recipe to get the kids off their faces when they can't seem to interface with the world in a manner that we old farts would consider to be 'normal' Weak minded, or under developed youthful intelects are easily indoctrinated and drawn ito this culture as easily as islamic terrorism perpetuated and uncontrolled on the internet as it demostrably is too.

 

So, what is the answer for the Government ?. . withdraw their welfare ? Not going to happen.

 

If I was asked to apportion any 'Blame' for this terrible incident, I would have to agree that the judiciary didn't do their job properly, especially since the Police tried abortively to oppose bail.

 

I know of five ex-police officers who have left the force for similar reasons in the uk. Two of these belonging to my flying club.

 

They cite 'Virtually Zero' support from the courts. Slapped wrist, bound over to keep the peace, let off with a 'Caution' etc etc. Their superiors do not back them up, being drawn from the politically correct University generation never having pounded the 'beat' nor worked the streets themselves.

 

Perhaps that is where we need to look for an abatement of the bollox we are seeing regularly occuring. The police are being lambasted here for shooting dead a well known drug dealer, and finding a loaded weapon in his car. . .and the usual suspects fill them media with plaintive cries of. . 'But he was a really nice bloke, and an aspiring Rapper, Footballer, Charity worker. . . '.etc ad nauseum.

 

'Doo Gooding' Handwringers will be the death of Western culture.

 

>

 

 

[Bruce]

Phil, you have to know the Coober Pedy of the old days. The opal-mining town was largely Croatian. There was a sign at the local cinema that said " patrons are requested not to bring explosives into this cinema".

 

My son went there as an apprentice electrician to fix the courthouse after it had been damaged by explosives.

 

Nobody knew the true population, those Croats would never think of filling out a census form.

 

Last time I went there, the place had changed. You needed photo identification to buy a bottle of wine, and all the booze outlets in the town were networked so you could only get one a day. There were much fewer aborigines on the streets and those that were looked much cleaner.

 

 

[Bruce]

If I had my way, welfare would be paid with a credit card and this card would have limits about what you could buy. It would not be valid for illegal drugs.

 

 

[storchy neil]

the blame is on the gov for closing mental prisons due to the bloody we don't need them do gooders they cost how mutch is life worth

 

try and get some one into a mental hospital good luck in five years time neil

 

 

[Yenn]

Isn't Melbourne the second largest Greek populated city in the World?

 

As for not having heard of greek terrorism, just think Cyprus. It as a hot spot in the fifties and i think it is still a divided country with the Greeks and the Turks being held apart by United Nations. It must be their greatest success story.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Three days after this disaster, a magistrate allowed out on bail a truck driver who ran over and killed an off-duty female police officer who had been riding a motorcycle, only 2km from my home, despite police objection that the defendant might flee to India. The person who bailed the perpetrator of the Bourke St massacre was not even a magistrate, just a bail justice, or JP. And the government continues to close night counters at police stations around Australia (Alice Springs advised recently). So if you are in peril after hours, you cannot run to a police station for assistance.

I read about that. However there's a big difference between being negligent (loading and brakes) resulting in a tragic accidental death, and deliberately running people down.

 

I have no problem with them letting out the truck driver on bail, and if they're worried about a flight risk, just hold on to his passport. He didn't set out to harm anyone.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Just saw this cartoon. This sort of thing has been happening in Israel quite a bit.

 

 

... just think Cyprus. It as a hot spot in the fifties and i think it is still a divided country with the Greeks and the Turks being held apart by United Nations. It must be their greatest success story.

A friend of mine was part of the UN force in Cyprus for a few years. He says there was not much to do but about every 12 months or so the locals would stage a bit of shooting and arguing purely with the intend to keep the UN presence there as an ongoing financial contributor. There is very little the UN does these days that is not primarily a scam and frequently actively harmful to the locals. It's notable achievements are all well in the past.

 

 

[Bruce]

This is unproveable I know Gnarly, but what if the UN stopped WW3 by providing a sort of safety valve where the cold-war nations could indulge in arguing instead of of launching?

 

But that's a great story about Cyprus. Gosh those Cypriots are not so stupid huh?

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Totally, they know which side their bread is buttered. Oops just noticed some grammatical errors.

 

The Bourke Street murderer was likely more inspired by psychotic drugs than the Koran, however he certainly claimed to be Islamic so I think there is clearly the possibility of demonic influence as well.

 

 

[Marty_d]

...and it's down the rabbit hole we go again.

 

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Sure, while you are down there you can read it and perhaps start to understand what I'm referring to.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

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[Yenn]

Pity the rabbits!

 

 

[Marty_d]

Pity the rabbits!

They're all running around in waistcoats, looking at their pocket watches and saying "Goodness, I'm late!"

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Back to topic - I just read an article in The Age (well, on their website: Bourke Street: Jewish community farewells 10-year-old victim Thalia Hakin) and although they are prone to sensationalising, it reflects the human tragedy of a father seeing her daughter laying in a pool of blood and her mother still too injured to attend her daughter's funeral (in fact unable to be told of her daughter's death until not long prior to her funeral).

 

Then, in another article which seems to have been taken off the website (free part, anyway) we have the accused being excused from attending court - and able to be granted a video-link because he is too ill - and if I read/understood correctly, that won't be until December (although I would have expected an indictment hearing would be a lot sooner and this is what the magistrate [edit] was may be [edit] excusing the defendant from attending in person); with the same Magistrate (stipendary, this time) refusing the prosecution an extension of time to furnish the defence counsel with evidence due to the unprecedented nature of the crime because it will delay the court hearing until January, 2017!?!.

 

If it is accurate (and I wasn't just dreaming it), how can anyone say whether or not the defendant will be too ill to attend court 10.5 months away; and then worry about whether or not it is delayed another month?

 

I am all for innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and allowing for due process, but it has to be a level playing field, surely.

 

 

[Bruce]

They have just put the CEO of Billabong in jail for forging a signature (over some millions of dollars, but no violence involved).

 

Well it makes me sick that this guy gets a jail place ahead of the Bourke street maniac. Our society is indeed insane.

 

 

[Marty_d]

I'm sorry, is anyone seriously suggesting that the Bourke St killer is somehow NOT in custody and is walking around free awaiting his trial?

 

 

[Bruce]

Marty, we are saying that the Bourke Street guy should have been in custody BEFORE he did the deed, and that he should not have been on bail. If he had only been in jail the killings would not have happened.

 

It has been said that bail magistrates were under pressure to grant bail because there were too few jail places left. My take on this is that there would be jail places available for the likes of the Bourke Street guy if only they wouldn't fill the jails with people like the Billabong guy. The Billabong guy was not likely to do mass murder or anything like it.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Ah yes I get you now. I don't know the specifics of his bail application - I know that the police opposed it, but then again that may not be a reliable indicator in all cases, as you'd imagine the police would tend to oppose most bail applications.

 

I agree that in cases where a magistrate (not a volunteer) were to determine that there is a reasonable risk of the person harming others, bail should definitely be rejected.

 

Sorry I mistook your meaning before... I shouldn't post pre-6am when I wake up and can't get back to sleep again...

 

 

[old man emu]

The police application for a bail refusal would have been based on the circumstances of the offences he was charged with originally. Reading between the lines, I'd say that the original offences were Domestic Violence related. Plus the police would have been able to advise the Court of the accused's prior criminal history, which may have painted a picture of a person with an inability to control his violent tendencies.

 

In NSW we have On-call Magistrates for the issue of Orders such as Apprehended Violence Orders, and various types of search warrants. These people are trained in these areas of Law. I doubt if your average JP would have had that sort of training. I know I wouldn't like to exercise my powers as a JP in the area of bail. Also, the lack of accommodation for Remand prisoners is a matter for the Prisons Department to address.

 

OME

 

 

[old man emu]

In NSW, Police make a bail determination for every charge laid against a person. In the vast majority of cases, the bail agreement is "unconditional". In other words, the accused agrees to turn up at Court on a date in the near future (usually about a week after charging). There are no conditions set for behaviour whilst on bail. This is the case for most minor offences such as DUI, serious driving offences (speed, manner), petty larcenies, and minor assaults.

 

If Police want to prevent recurrences of the same offence, they might set conditions to be met by the accused, such as staying away from victims or witnesses; posting a surety which would be forfeited if the accused failed to show up at Court; curfews (a great one for juveniles).

 

If the accused is a nasty bit of work, then, in the first instance, Police can refuse bail. This means the accused is held in custody until he/she can be brought before a Court for the bail decision to be reviewed. If the bail determination has been made during the hours the Court is sitting, then the accused is sent before the Magistrate the same day. If the Court is not sitting, the accused remains in custody until the next day (usually) when the Court can open. On Saturdays, Sundays and Public Holidays, the Court is opened only to review bail determinations.

 

Whenever a bail determination has been made, from unconditional to refused, it always is reviewed before a qualified Magistrate at every appearance. In this way, a qualified, experienced Magistrate can either soften or stiffen the bail conditions, depending on the representations made by the Crown or the Defence.

 

The system works well, with only R Soles, and drug dealers remaining in custody while on Remand. It doesn't stop the accused repeating similar offences, but if they are charged with offences while on Bail, they usually get to visit with Officer Edgar Mallory and don't get to collect $200.

 

OME

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sadly, another victim has succumbed: Bourke Street attack: Sixth victim identified as Bhavita Patel