GRIPES

[Jerry_Atrick]

Just going to Heidelberg (in Melbourne) is a gripe on its own!

 

A modern art exhibition was defaced by two men: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/oct/25/fiachragibbons1

 

I think they did the art world a favour!

 

[nomadpete]

Please explain the difference between art and graffiti.

[willedoo]

14 hours ago, onetrack said:

I've always had this sneaking suspicion that many of these so-called modern "artists", are just "con-artists". I'm sure they're just having a great time sucking up to "art expert" wa*k**s, who try to pretend that they alone have superior knowledge of just what is being expressed in a collection of carp that no-one else can see any sense in. And I've been to Bilbao's Guggenheim Art Museum and there's plenty of the carp there that Peter viewed today, too - although there is some good art amongst it.

I mean to say, we went into this room and this clown was firing big buckets of red paint at a wall from the equivalent of a small cannon - and he was claiming it as top-level exotic art, and full of expression and meaning, and god-knows-what-else. I reckon he was just having a great old playtime, at art followers and the museums huge expense.

onetrack that's a fairly accurate view of the art industry. One the one hand, you have the potential, struggling, would-be artists trying to crack into the game and make a full time go of it. On the other hand, you have the game. It revolves around the money - the gallery owners, sponsors, promoters, dealers, brokers etc.. Somewhere in the middle you find the wankers. These are the art critics, writers, and general all round dickheads who can't do it themselves, so choose to waffle on about it instead.

 

The problem for unknown artists wanting a foot in the door, is that the only way to the money men is through the wankers. To do that, artists must learn to talk wankspeak, the language of the critics. The more they can suck up to them in wankspeak, the higher the chance of getting their art recognised and promoted. A lot of artists are having to compromise their art to clowns in order to have a chance of success. They figure once they make a name for themselves, then they can be more artistically true to themselves. Once they are a big name, they can do whatever they want and the wankers will feed off them.

 

I remember years ago watching an interview with Pro Hart by one of the wankers. The interviewer was trying to get arty-farty wankspeak answers out of Pro Hart, but he wasn't having a bar of it. He was asked an arty, waffle loaded question on what drives his art and keeps him going. Pro told him straight out that he did it because he enjoyed it and it was good money. He told the bloke he could fire a paint cannon at a canvas and get a few thousand dollars for it, then went on to tell the bloke the income kept him in a good lifestyle and funded things like his motorbike collection. The poor interviewer was at a loss, Pro wasn't speaking the language.

 

Just as a side note, I'm not writing this from the point of view of someone who is anti art. I like a lot of art, but am against the BS in the industry. Back in the seventies, I did a semester at art college before dropping out due to financial constraints. The first year was common and in the second year students split into either commercial or fine art courses. The subjects were all good and practical except one called art appreciation. It could easily have been renamed 'How to talk a lot of shite and suck up to tossers so you can move up the ladder in your art career'.

[spacesailor]

It's purely! .

Bureaucratic. 

If sanctioned,  it's ART .

If unsanctioned it's Graffiti. 

If Pro Art throws food on the carpet !.  ( stain Master carpets 1980s  ) .

IT'S ART

IF naughty babies throw their food on the same carpet!.

It's NOT ART

spacesailor

[nomadpete]

Agree totally, Wille.

In a past life I spent time with a nice lady who really loved art. And wanted to move into the art gallery industry in order to make a living among the stuff she loved. So, being a logical woman (they do exist), she did an arts degree as a first step. So I spent a couple of years visiting every art installation opening night. The canapes and champagne was nice.

Some 'art' was interesting but many were carp. The prices on stuff had no relevance to the imagination or skill involved. And all prices were outrageous. The overheard artwank that went with it was enough to turn your stomach.

And, like the music industry, making money is all about how good you are at politics.

Disenchanted, the lady finally started to understand how the game is played, and went back to a more comventional career where the pay is mostly in proportion to your abilities.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by nomadpete
I edited it just to keep it down to only one chapter....

[spenaroo]

I have a friend who is an artist,
but never really goes anywhere and bounces around different jobs.

the Art income is sporadic and hardly worth doing. she has stopped doing commissions as its a grueling process dealing with people, especially with getting paid - can be delighted with the work, but treat you like a thief

[Marty_d]

A really good friend and neighbour of ours is an artist too.  She has one exhibition a year and usually sells quite a few, but it's by no means a full time wage equivalent.

Her stuff is really good, quite dark (much of it is based on family stories from WWII era around Eastern Europe) - but you can see the skill, as opposed to the paint-splashing technique mentioned before.

She's agreed to do the nose art on my plane when it's finished, in return for some building work I helped out with.

 

http://www.ninakeri.com/

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Marty_d

[willedoo]

It's mainly people in the industry who are not artists that overthink art. They think that all artwork must have some deep seated meaning and that is has been planned and executed that way. It's not like that at all, political statement artists excluded. For most artists, it's just an extension of doodling. Most start with a pen or brush in hand staring at a blank canvas or paper and then just let it rip. They finally end up with a finished product and if they want to sell it, will then have to come up with a title and narrative to appease the non producers in the industry who have overly complicated a very simple thing.

 

For artists, their work is something that gives them pleasure, and if anyone else appreciates it, then that's a bonus. It's that simple. Of course, there's exceptions who take it too seriously like Vincent, but he was stark raving mad and would have cut off his ears no matter whether he was an artist or a bricklayer. He wasn't a naturally gifted artist. He decided to take it up and had to learn how to draw from scratch. There's existing specimens of his early attempts at drawing people and they were terrible. Other sketches done eighteen months later were excellent.

 

It's my guess that artists would do their best work if they ignored what other people think and just did it for their own enjoyment. Starting a painting with the objects of financial gain and furthering the career hovering in the background is a corruption of what art is supposed to be.

[willedoo]

38 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

A really good friend and neighbour of ours is an artist too.  She has one exhibition a year and usually sells quite a few, but it's by no means a full time wage equivalent.

Her stuff is really good, quite dark (much of it is based on family stories from WWII era around Eastern Europe) - but you can see the skill, as opposed to the paint-splashing technique mentioned before.

She's agreed to do the nose art on my plane when it's finished, in return for some building work I helped out with.

 

http://www.ninakeri.com/

 

 

 

Good stuff Marty, I like it.

[Jerry_Atrick]

The parents of a daugher's friends are both artists and both very gifted. She does prints as sort of a mass business and he does animal portraits on commission as well as holds exhibitions. His commissions start at £5K for something small, and prizewinning bull portraits have earned him upwards of £30K. He also holds virtual exhibitions and people as far away as Australia have purchased from him. Between them, they make a very tidy living.

 

My partner is also gifted in art, but she serioulsy lacks confidence. Years ago, she did a couple of small abstract modern art paintings. I don't have an artistic bone in my body, but even I thought they looked good - in an unbiased way. A couple of our friends who saw them offered her a commission on the spot for a couple of hundred pounds, but she declined.. confiding to me they took her no time at all to do and that she would feel guilty taking their money. I reminded her that we buy things priced on the value they are to us - if someone gets years of enjoyment out of them, a couple of hundred pounds in their eyes is excellent value.

 

I have been very supportive in her endeavours, but, sadly, I am starting to tire. She always walks towards the starting line and then decides to walk away. I remind her how frustrating it is for us that oour son who has immense sporting and academic talent has decided not to realise his potential - and how she should be frustrated she is not realising hers.

[willedoo]

8 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I have been very supportive in her endeavours, but, sadly, I am starting to tire. She always walks towards the starting line and then decides to walk away. I remind her how frustrating it is for us that oour son who has immense sporting and academic talent has decided not to realise his potential - and how she should be frustrated she is not realising hers.

There's a lot of unrealised potential out there. Unfortunately sometimes life gets in the way. A mate of mine is brilliant at making violins, cellos, guitars etc., but he could never break through the poverty and motivation barriers to make a full time career of it. His day job is welding and metal fabrication. I can still remember the first guitar he made in the early 70's with no formal training, no internet, and no guide apart from eyeballing other guitars. In sound quality, I would have related it equivalent to a Maton guitar which is not bad for a first ever attempt. But to pay the bills, he has spent most of his life welding, fitting and turning.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, willedoo said:

There's a lot of unrealised potential out there. Unfortunately sometimes life gets in the way.
…But to pay the bills, he has spent most of his life welding, fitting and turning.

A common story, Willedoo. Maybe when his kids leave the nest he can pursue his real life passion.

 

I knew a bloke who taught himself to build Baroque keyboard instruments.

After spending time sneaking close-up inspections of historic spinets and harpsicords in museums across Europe, he came home and built a couple of his own, in his dad’s woolshed. Later, a few if us helped him build a proper workshop and his reputation spread.
His instruments are now found all over the world.

[red750]

Apps, apps,apps.... they're driving me mad.

 

Not that I use many, but the fact that some things are only available via an app.

 

For instance, Aust Post will no longer leave cards saying you have a parcel to pick up, they will notify you on the Aust Post app.

 

McDonalds, Dominoes and other take-away food outlets have items only avaialble by their app.

 

Some on-demand TV programs are only available by app.

 

My mate at the Men's Shed said he wanted to transfer some money from his ING account to a fixed deposit. They said, "No you have to do that via the app. or internet."

 

This is not fair on older folks. My friend had a very old flip phone which didn't use apps. His daughter gave him a second hand Samsung but he has no idea how to use it, let alone download and use apps. He also has no idea how to tturn a computer on, let alone use it. All emails have to be sent to his wife's email. He is 80. There are other guys into their 90's who also have difficulty with new technology.

[facthunter]

These things  just creep up on you and suddenly, if you're not there you are not anywhere. You weren't ASKED. beforehand.   Yesterday my computer just wouldn't receive anything but  my boss got a new modem from Telstra and I've gone from ADSL2 to Wireless and MY PC is truly ALIVE again. First good thing for a while in the tech area.  Nev

[Marty_d]

While I do sympathize with people who find it difficult to use the new tech, many older people learn to use it just fine.  My mother is 90 and in a nursing home,  she does stuff on her laptop and uses apps on her phone like downloading audio books from the library. 

Home pc's have been around for about 40 years and smartphones for 20, so it's not exactly new.

[octave]

3 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

My mother is 90 and in a nursing home,  she does stuff on her laptop

 

Yes, same with my mother although not quite there with phone apps though.   We have set my mother up in the aged care home with her desk and laptop.  When we visit (she is interstate) it is interesting to see that as you walk past people's rooms most people seem to be "installed" in their recliner chairs watching endless TV.   My mother is more likely to be on a video chat with her friend in England (they were nurses together 70-plus years ago.) It is not necessarily easy for her but we provide support over the phone and can log into her PC to fix problems.   I do think my mother is treated with an extra level of respect because of this.

 

My inlaws are in their late eighties and are both reasonably comfortable with apps. 

 

My wife and I pledged a few years ago that we would keep up with these kinds of innovations even if it took a little effort.  This is the equivalent of doing crosswords to keep our minds functioning well.  I can see that those in their  80s or 90s came to this kind of technology later in life (if at all) and this can be difficult.    Although in my family there are 2 computer experts I am always highly motivated to solve problems myself before asking for help.  Nothing winds me up more than the assumption that my grey hair equals incompetence with anything past the year 2000. 

 

I think as time moves on new generations of older people will have much more experience with tech.  Whilst I am very sympathetic to those older folks who struggle I have no intention of becoming that way myself.   

[red750]

I just knew that was coming. Again, bully for you. Unfortunately some others are not so up with it. Should they be discriminated against?

[octave]

3 minutes ago, red750 said:

I just knew that was coming. Again, bully for you. Unfortunately some others are not so up with it. Should they be discriminated against?

Red I twice expressed sympathy with those who struggle.   To be clear I think there should be other ways of doing things whilst the demand exists.  Bully for me?   I don't really think my post is inappropriate in any way, is it?   You expressed your experience and I expressed mine. Are we not here to exchange points of view or do we all have to agree on everything? 

[onetrack]

My old Italian neighbour Barney, who's 93, is totally lost with technology. He doesn't use smartphones and doesn't have a computer and hates "computerisation". He reckons it's "all about control, just like-a the Catholic Church held all the power in-a my country! You no go to the priest, you no get a job!!".

 

He's probably right in many ways. The authorities are slowly but steadily ensuring that the country is totally computerised and we are spied on, watched, tracked, and every single thing we do is recorded.

 

Barney hates it, he loves getting surplus cash out of the bank and putting it under his mattress, he reckons "the Govt will cut off my pension when they see I got too much money!! So I keep-a the cash and they don't know what I got!"

 

He keeps checking his letterbox for mail and doesn't understand why he gets so little today. He still walks down to the corner servo and buys his newspaper every morning - then complains about how it's just all "rubbish advertising!". He really is a dinosaur, and I'd have to opine part of the problem is his poor command of English, and his historically poor treatment by authorities and the Church, in Italy, as a young bloke. He came here in the early 1950's as a 20 year old.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by onetrack

[red750]

Reminiscent of my mate Bruno, from the shed. Also Italian extraction, came to Australia when he was about 12, I believe. He was on my staff in my last position with the bank in 1991. Retired about 15 years ago.

[old man emu]

What if you are too busy doing other things to allocate a lot of time to mastering things that are of minor importance to you?

 

I don't need an app to order take-away, or get it delivered. The extent to which I use online banking doesn't require more than a very basic understanding. I've got a debit card that lets me be cashless, although it irks me to use it for purchases under $10. I use the Internet to explore the sum of the knowledge of Mankind, or to watch visual media whether light entertainment, documentaries or to acquire a skill I need at the time.

 

I've got a Facebook account, but only use it for one group, and to access Messenger to contact my kids, although it seems their Smartphones are can't enable voice communication.

[facthunter]

ALL these "Plastic" transactions COST SOMEONE MONEY and it goes to the BANK.  It ends up on the price of the article, SOMEHOW... A little bit on "every" adds up to a LOT in the end.. Why do BANKS have a great TOWER in the best part of Town, and pay their CEO's eye watering amounts of money? Because WE allow them to. . TOO BIG to FAIL!!!  You ARE being served.  Nev

[red750]

Don't tell Octave that, Nev. He pays nothing - or next to.

[octave]

4 minutes ago, red750 said:

Don't tell Octave that, Nev. He pays nothing - or next to.

My debit card is from Bank Australia, the way I use it does not attract a fee unless I opt for a staff-assisted transaction or if I exceed my available funds or a dishonor fee. I never do any of these things. Bank Australia is a community-owned bank, the customers are the owners.  Bank Australia is a not for profit bank

 

As we're not listed on the stock exchange, we only answer to you. Profits are returned to you in the form of competitive rates, fair fees and quality products and services. We take action on the issues that matter to you, like climate. Our net zero by 2035 target is the most ambitious of any Australian bank.

 

  https://bankaust.com.au/banking/savings-accounts/savings-account-rates-and-fees 

 

Of course, there is a cost to the bank for digital transactions, and in the case of my bank, I would imagine that these costs are paid by the difference between interest paid to me and interest charged by the bank on the money they loan.

 

 

 

My credit card does cost me $50 a year and no interest because I zero it every Friday. The $50 annual fee is more than compensated for by the reward points which I take exclusively in Bunnings vouchers (about $200-$250 a year).  These digital transactions also do have a cost.    The seller pays some of it which of course is passed onto the customers no matter how they pay.  Whilst this may seem unfair to those who pay by cash we need to remember that cash also has a cost.  That amoured van that delivers and picks up cash is not a free service.

 

The bottom line is that at no point have I advocated getting rid of cash.  I have not even tried to convince others to use digital.  At least one post was suggesting that people shun digital methods in order to support the retention of cash.  Being open-minded I have modeled that and it just would not work for the majority of my transactions and for the others I don't feel inclined to jump in my car and drive to the bank and join a queue.   

 

The bottom line for me is people should use cash if that is what they want to do. I don't believe (correct me if I am wrong) I have criticized anyone for preferring cash.  

 

 

[spacesailor]

The Big new thing, with smart gadgets,  is ' we have moved away from the American IBM ' style 

Of computerisation. 

Even though we are still with the very old ' mechanical ' QWERTY , keyboard. 

The programs are in " hieroglyphics '  , not our ' alphabetical ' style. 

Can't find the way to '' return " ,  no " hard entry " key .

Lots of " bloatware " making life difficult for those , that take longer to Change .

spacesailor