who to blame

[storchy neil]

just a thought

 

in Victoria next year 20000 new homes are built

 

each home uses 15kw of power per day

 

how many wind turbines are needed

 

how many solar panels are needed

 

now in the mean time the electric met tunnels com on line what is going to power it

 

green power labour power liberal power

 

so those off you that closed down your so called dirty power station suck eggs cause you are to blame

 

find out what and how many kw gw or what ever it is your power is going to fail or your train arnt going any where neil

 

 

[Marty_d]

... your so called dirty power station ...

What's "so called" about it? It was dirty. And the company who owned it shut it down, because it was going to cost millions to fix.

 

If CSIRO say that Australia already has the capacity to fully run on renewable energy, I trust that more than the ravings of pro-coal idiots like Abbott.

 

 

[old man emu]

It is clear to Blind Freddy that if each building had a solar array, plus a compact electricity storage unit, then the size (in terms of output) of power stations required to top up the levels during peak times would be less. Less output = less fuel. Add in the renewable type sources already existing, and power supply is taken care of. The only reason pollies want coal fired is that they have their hands in the pie, mostly in indirect ways.

 

And the Greenies only ever trot out their paranoia about nuclear because they don't think a suitable means of disposing of waste can be found. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There's less damage to the environment in safely dealing with a year's worth of nuclear waste then in gouging coal from the ground and burning it. What's wrong with putting the waste back into the hole the uranium ore originally came from?

 

OME

 

 

[spacesailor]

Or

 

Put it down the coal mine, with lots of concrete, to stop crazy's from digging it up again.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[storchy neil]

see here we go again cant any one answer the question neil

 

 

[octave]

see here we go again cant any one answer the question neil

That is because your question presupposes using only wind and solar. Whilst some people may think this would work, clearly with our current storage technology at this point in time it would not. The answer, until better forms of storage are developed or fusion is perfected is surely a mix of power sources.

 

Hazelwood power station (built in 1964) would require a huge investment to refurbish it and the company that owns it (and their shareholders) are just not willing to do it.

 

I know Neil that you probably don't accept that Co2 is a problem but that is not the only concern.

 

Pollutants

 

In a 2007-2008 report, the National Pollutant Inventory (NPI) rated the power station's polychlorinated dioxins and furans as "high 100", hydrochloric acid as "high 87", oxides of nitrogen as "medium 57", particulate matter 2.5 μm as "low 21", and boron & compounds as "low 15".[20]

 

The 2005-2006 NPI data showed that Hazelwood released 100,000 kilograms (220,000 lb) of boron and compounds into the air and 5,200 kilograms (11,500 lb) into water. Also released into the air: 7.7 million kilograms (270,000,000 oz) hydrochloric acid, 27 million kilograms (950,000,000 oz) of oxides of nitrogen, 2.9 million kilograms (100,000,000 oz) of particulate matter 10 μm, and 0.015 kilograms (0.033 lb) of polychlorinated dioxins and furans. Many pollutants are not measured.[21]

 

Air pollution from the normal operations of Hazelwood alone had been estimated to kill at least 18 people a year in Gippsland, and make many more people sick. The estimated annual health burden on the community of Hazelwood’s air pollution was $100 million each year, calculated using methodology developed by the US National Academy of Sciences.[22] [1]

 

Whatever the answer is it is most definitely not keeping antiquated technology limping along.

 

 

[nomadpete]

I note you didn't mention sulphur dioxide. Some years ago there was a big push to reduce the amount of this pollutant from coal fired power station stacks, mostly in US of A. It is yet another nastie which is also a greenhouse gas. Have they stopped measuring this one, I wonder?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Also not mentioned is radio isotopes. Most coal plants emit much more than any nuclear plant.

 

But we will still have a lot of base coal for at least the next thirty years, there is no alternative for runnng industry.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

see here we go again cant any one answer the question neil

Neil, when you ask a clear, coherent question quite a few of us will try to answer it.

 

 

[storchy neil]

I ask the question who is to blame so far tony abbot is to blame so far istopes are to blame sulphur dioxide to blame pollutants are to blame concreate will fix the so called problem wtf neil

 

 

[facthunter]

The atmosphere is not just a dump for everything we want to get rid of on the cheap. (It's actually not all that large) Nor are creeks and the sea just for dumping stuff. You can't drink out of any natural waterway now because it's full of e coli and heavy metals. Some parts of the sea are dead. NO oxygen. The population of India has more than doubled since the 50's (as an example, one of many) Mankind is now an earth epidemic phenomenon. Help needed for the planet. We need to start looking after it, instead of making money out of it. Land clearing must be halted. Greenery is where the initial oxygen came from, to allow mammals to live.. It's essential for life. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

A good way to reduce carbon or any other emissions would be to reduce power usage.

 

In Qld the power use must have gone up drasticly in recent years. Just look at the roads and new sub divisions. Where we used to have a road junction out in the bush we now have 20 or so street lights, which do nothing for safety. New subdivisions have vast numbers of street lights, but you never see anyone walking there at night. They even have the lights on before any houses are built. Have a look at sports fields, one near my home shines like car headlights down about a Km of road, and even then there will be nobody playing on the field. My neighbour about 100m away has outside lights that light up my place very well at night and all that use it are his horses.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Queensland's summer power consumption overtook the peak winter consumption some years ago, due mainly to widespread adoption of home air conditioning. Also, there has been a spreading careless public attitude to power usage. Nobody seems to bother turning off lights and appliances when they are not required. Yet everybody complains about their electricity bill. I have noticed an increase in the Generation cost, in the order of about 50% over the last 4or 5 years. That price rise had nothing to do with solar panels. But there have been a few new gas/coal power units come on line and that might have been a contributing factor. Anyway, it is a (mostly coal fired) Generator cost increase. There has also been a large capital investment in Queensland's transmission grid. My guess is as much as 2 billion dollars spent over the last 5years. Most of that was for the CSG industry, extending the grid out to Roma. The CSG companies probably made contributions to it. I can't help but suspect that us bill paying punters are subsidising the CSG electricity . All these things affect retail electricity prices.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Relating to Neil's remark, suggesting a shortfall of power, and maybe blackouts:

 

Some 20 years ago, I read a economic policy analysis of USA power stations and grid operation.

 

The executive summary shocked me at the time. Basically it said that unless you are having nominal power outages, you are over spending on infrastructure and maintenance. That is the underlying policy of privatised electricity supply.

 

Believe it or not, government owned power supply is the cheapest and most reliable here in Australia. Those states with large amounts of private ownership (such as South Aust) have dearest and least reliable electricity supply.

 

I think it shows the difference between having a public owned service to the public, and having a profit making business that happens to provide a service to the public, after first making a profit.

 

We have been spoilt. It can only get worse as the industry gets fragmented by privatisation.

 

 

[spacesailor]

And, they don't like the idea of an "off grid" solar for people not out rural Australia, for those that think different!.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[nomadpete]

I don't think "off the grid" consumers bother anyone because it will only ever represent a very small percentage of the business. Most folk in cities couldn't bother to do it. I'm rural, and although I liked the idea of being my own power provider, I got cold feet in favor of highly reliable grid power (read that as couldn't be bothered to commit to the maintenance). So I paid $22,000 to connect to the grid. I still haven't forgiven myself for that.

 

There is only one real impact caused by solar (or wind) grid feed in systems. It requires the national grid controllers (National Electricity Market controllers) to adapt to the additional energy coming into the grid. NEMMCO are the mob in charge of power stations, telling which ones to come online and when.

 

The South Australian power outage seems to worry some. Although I didn't get to see the results of the investigation, believe it was caused mainly by automatic circuit breakers similar to the circuit breakers on every power generator regardless of whether it is wind or coal. That, combined with the S.A.-Vic interconnector (I believe privately owned) restriction.

 

It was BS to blame it on alternative energy.

 

 

[facthunter]

The truth of some of that is starting to come out. You have to look hard to find it though.. No one wants to have a powerplant sitting idle just in case it's needed. Critical Coal is the least likely to fill that requirement. Battery and hydro are suitable. Pump hydro has an efficiency rating of about 70% as far as I can tell but that would have to have a ?? re location and access to the grid and real cost. Experts have questioned the suitability of gas fired power also. If you question the use of experts who else would you recommend we use? Poor planning produces piss poor results doesn't just apply to aviation. Uptake of private solar is high and getting higher (and cheaper). This really complicates the idea of centralised power sources and an all dependent, vulnerable and expensive grid, owned partly by private monopolies often foreign based. Nev

 

 

[nomadpete]

Tassie used to have cheap electricity - until the Basslink cable connected it to the mainland grid. The present Tassie Hydro generators are capable of supplying 100% of Tassies electricity. However, the dams don't hold enough water to run all year. So coal electrons are purchased from the mainland to fill the gap. When Basslink broke recently there was panic as the water was running out. That's the limit of what the media reported. What is not mentioned, is that thanks to all those "silly" solar panels distributed across rooftops, a significant amount of water was saved. Nobody gave credit to the solar contribution. If there were more solar panels, Tamania could quite possibly stop buying power from the mainland. The hydro is capable of supplying base load, and if there was more solar they could save the multi million dollar expense of building a second Basslink undersea cable, which has been proposed to cater for failures. By the way, Tassie no longer pays a nice feed in tariff, so incentives are not all that great to put solar on your roof. The media plays a big part in the generally poor attitude to alternative energy. For instance if I fail to diversify my investment portfolio, put all my eggs in one basket, etc. it's called poor planning. But nobody sees the value in diversifying our power generation portfolio.

 

 

[spacesailor]

The higher they put the price of electricity, the more urban residents will seek alternative,s to save even a small amount of $'s.

 

The return from grid connected solar, won't repay the outlay now, they say for 15 years, but off-grid will, the higher their bill, the higher the saving, for being off-grid.

 

spacesailor.

 

 

[facthunter]

IF you want to do welding or such, off grid is not a goer, unless you are VERY big. Too many VESTED interests complicating the FACTS for their own outcome/benefit to get much truth out here in Australia.. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

Heating water and direct warming by other than a heat pump is a big user of electrical power. Off peak may give some reduction of cost but the amount of reduction doesn't seem to be as high a % as it used to be. Variable pricing could help level out the demand. The generators must equal the demand at all times. That's the big problem with electric supply from other than hydro or a battery system. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

FactHunter.

 

To do welding, you only need the right alternator on your truck, I got mine for a boat, 12/240 volts, plus light welding.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[willedoo]

It will be interesting to see how future technology evolves. There was an article recently about a group of scientists developing small batteries powered by the reaction between synthetic diamond and waste radioactive material. The theory is, that the two in contact give off an electrical charge. Pros are a way to use up waste radioactive material, and from a safety point of view, the diamond is so hard that it's unlikely any radioactive emissions would make it outside the diamond casing.

 

They say that a battery could power a smart phone for about 5,000 years. The big challenge is, that so far, it's only viable with very small batteries, and the way to project that to a larger scale is not worked out yet. Even if one day it was possible to have such a system that powered a household forever, who in their right mind would offer free or low cost power to the peasants. What's the good of having a milking cow if you are not squeezing every drop out of it. Whichever way you look at it, we're being screwed and the whole thing's just a big wank. The only way out of it is to live in a cave with a lantern powered by animal fat.

 

Cheers, Willie.

 

 

[facthunter]

Hooking you to a grid they control is what they prefer. Same as toll roads and parking. and borrowing money. They screw you till your eyes water..Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

ok 2 questions

 

what is the minimum wind speed needed to generate 1 kw of power ?

 

what is the maximum wind speed that wind turbines shut down ?

 

neil