Interesting short video - A=432 hz Versus the long accepted A=440 hz.

[Phil Perry]

There may well be some Musical and also Plant Growing Nerds who are fascinated by this revelation. . .

 

 

[octave]

There may well be some Musical and also Plant Growing Nerds who are fascinated by this revelation. . .

 

.

 

I have been a professional musician for all of my working life (37 years) and a music teacher (Clarinet Flute and Sax) for 27 years, which is probably why I am very familiar with this conspiracy theory.

 

This clip contains many errors one of which is the idea that the Nazis did it. 440 hertz well and truly predates the 40s, being first recommended in 1834 by Schiebler although it did not become an international standard until 1955.

 

There are loads of other fallacies in this clip but I won't bore you all with them (unless you want me to - lol)

 

An interesting point is that A=432 sounds flat to most musicians ears, in fact, the instruments I teach are usually played slightly flat in the hands of a beginner due to poor technique and it does not sound good!

 

A=440 is arbitrary but so is 432, their argument here is not well presented other than "studies show"

 

If 432 had been adopted earlier it may well sound normal to our western ears (remember the music we are talking about here is western, other cultures use different systems that sound odd to us)

 

An interesting point is that because flatness tends to sound dull and (a small amount) of sharpness sounds bright, some orchestras deliberately tune slightly sharp. This slight sharpness makes them sound a little brighter than their rival orchestras, this leads to a problem called "pitch inflation", which could be likened to a kind of arms race.

 

Cheers

 

 

[Phil Perry]

.I have been a professional musician for all of my working life (37 years) and a music teacher (Clarinet Flute and Sax) for 27 years, which is probably why I am very familiar with this conspiracy theory.

 

This clip contains many errors one of which is the idea that the Nazis did it. 440 hertz well and truly predates the 40s, being first recommended in 1834 by Schiebler although it did not become an international standard until 1955.

 

There are loads of other fallacies in this clip but I won't bore you all with them (unless you want me to - lol)

 

An interesting point is that A=432 sounds flat to most musicians ears, in fact, the instruments I teach are usually played slightly flat in the hands of a beginner due to poor technique and it does not sound good!

 

A=440 is arbitrary but so is 432, their argument here is not well presented other than "studies show"

 

If 432 had been adopted earlier it may well sound normal to our western ears (remember the music we are talking about here is western, other cultures use different systems that sound odd to us)

 

An interesting point is that because flatness tends to sound dull and (a small amount) of sharpness sounds bright, some orchestras deliberately tune slightly sharp. This slight sharpness makes them sound a little brighter than their rival orchestras, this leads to a problem called "pitch inflation", which could be likened to a kind of arms race.

 

Cheers

Fascinating Octave,. . . and now your posting name clicks into place !

 

I have never been able to 'Sight read' musical notation, probably because I am a lazy bugger and never learned it properly in my youth. . .

 

I shall use the time honoured excuse of 'Other distractions' of youth. If I study a piece long enough, I CAN work out what it is, just about.

 

I learned to play the guitar, beginning at the age of around seven, but I could not afford professional instruction, and neither could my parents at the time. . I thank sheet music, the type which shows pictures of chords above the notation. Later I played by 'Ear', quite often not in the key intended by the original composer, using chords which were easier to finger, something a couple of my earlier 'Pop' bands did also, especially when the person doing the singing couldn't reach a particular high note, we would drop the root key down lower so that he could !

 

One particular song was in the key of 'E', but we had to play it in C# ( or D flat as guitarists seem to prefer to call it ) for him to manage the vocal range ! Most of our 'Dancing about' audiences did not notice this bit of cheating ! Although the guitar chord shapes were excruciating to transpose . . .

 

I never used a capo neck clamp, just suffered from aching finger joints instead.

 

My earliest achievement was learning by Ear, the chord progression in the Beatles song 'Michelle' in the early 1960s. .and only getting one of them ever so slightly wrong, they sounded fairly tres bien ensemble anyhow.

 

Thank you for that insight into the 'A' conspiracy. I have never owned one of these fancy electronic guitar tuning gadgets, preferring my single 'A' tuning fork, then tuning the other strings by ear. When playing with bands having a keyboard or piano of course, this isn't required.

 

Phil.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

A very dear friend, Allan Bishop,. . .died of Pancreatic cancer 12 days ago, Aged 57 and his funeral was held on Tuesday Last. . .Allan was a superb musician, having played in various bands for some 45 years, and could literally do Anything with a keyboard, quite often using two at the same time. . . I was utterly astonished at the musical celebrities who turned up at the funeral and the wake following it. . .the list read like the 'Who's Who of British music over the past 40 years. . .

 

I had never met Paul McCartney before. . .Nice bloke. . . seems quite normal,. . just like us,. . for all his millions. . other than hero worship when I watched the Beatles in 1969 in Birmingham and couldn't hear them for all the girlies bloody screaming. . . Roy Wood (The Move/ ELO / Wizard ) was there, as were several members of well known rock bands including Glenn Hughes ( early member of Deep Purple ) members of Whitesnake, . and lots of other British rock bands that you may well have never heard of. . .

 

Allan was a classically trained musician, and one night, some poor soul suggested that he couldn't play anything classical. . .During the interval,. . .he proceeded to play a Bach fugue, can't remember which one, but it was very impressive . . .I am sorry that we shall probably not see his like again, and I rage at the machine, that medical science has still not conquered many forms of cancer. . . .

 

I have now lost two friends to this particular variety of cancer. . .the first of whom was the guy whose Widow from whom I organised a purchase of his X'Air kit, partially built, back in 2002. . . when she had been offered a paltry £2,000 for the kit. . .I got ten people together and we each put in £1,000 and bought it, then completed the kit and ran it as a syndicate for more than nine years. . . . It is still flying to this day. . .

 

 

[octave]

Fascinating Octave,. . . and now your posting name clicks into place !

I have never been able to 'Sight read' musical notation, probably because I am a lazy bugger and never learned it properly in my youth. . .

 

I shall use the time honoured excuse of 'Other distractions' of youth. If I study a piece long enough, I CAN work out what it is, just about.

 

I learned to play the guitar, beginning at the age of around seven, but I could not afford professional instruction, and neither could my parents at the time. . I thank sheet music, the type which shows pictures of chords above the notation. Later I played by 'Ear', quite often not in the key intended by the original composer, using chords which were easier to finger, something a couple of my earlier 'Pop' bands did also, especially when the person doing the singing couldn't reach a particular high note, we would drop the root key down lower so that he could !

 

One particular song was in the key of 'E', but we had to play it in C# ( or D flat as guitarists seem to prefer to call it ) for him to manage the vocal range ! Most of our 'Dancing about' audiences did not notice this bit of cheating ! Although the guitar chord shapes were excruciating to transpose . . .

 

I never used a capo neck clamp, just suffered from aching finger joints instead.

 

My earliest achievement was learning by Ear, the chord progression in the Beatles song 'Michelle' in the early 1960s. .and only getting one of them ever so slightly wrong, they sounded fairly tres bien ensemble anyhow.

 

Thank you for that insight into the 'A' conspiracy. I have never owned one of these fancy electronic guitar tuning gadgets, preferring my single 'A' tuning fork, then tuning the other strings by ear. When playing with bands having a keyboard or piano of course, this isn't required.

 

Phil.

Re music reading.

 

Whilst generally I think music reading is essential for working as a musician, I do think we can forget that reading music merely reminds us how the melody goes. If you know the way to your friend's house there is little point in reading a map. Although for some types of music, reading is essential, you can't' really ask the conductor of an orchestra to hum a few bars for you. But the other side of that is that the sheet music is there to help not make the job harder. Here is a great example. A few years ago I taught a teenage girl saxophone. She was quite a good player. I was teaching her quite a complicated piece, but after several months, despite the fact that she did practice often, she would stumble through this piece, it just wasn't fluent. One week she came for her lesson and had forgotten her sheet music, I suggested we work on something else but she told me she had practiced this piece so mush that she had almost memorized it. To my surprise, although it was far from perfect she was able to play it much more fluently. I assumed that she had made a breakthrough. The next week she brought her music and proceeded to stumble through this piece. What appeared to be happening was when the music was in front of her she felt some kind of obligation to read each individual note rather than using it as a guide to reminding her what part came next.

 

I would say if you enjoy playing by ear, then continue enjoying it.

 

Here is a clip of some unusual instruments, it doesn't relate to what we have been discussing but I certainly found "cool" and interesting

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Shouldn't over use the word 'Fascinating' really, but that is exactly what it is. . . .cool indeed ( ! ) I love the overhead sling holding the violin for that nice Lady . . would have been somewhat heavy to clamp that under her little chin methinks. Interesting that the warm breath from the audience has the effect of raising the ambient enough to create tuning problems.

 

I ( Very dimly ) recall tuning up before going on stage at a fairly large venue ( Aircraft hangar actually ) one freezing evening in December; we tuned the bass, and two six stringed guitars in the comfort of a warm dressing room, and then when we plugged into the amps on the rather chilly stage, . . .we were all out of tune again, requiring an announcement from the frontman of "We're going to start with an old Chinese Folk song folks. . .it's called TOO NING. . . ( Most unprofessional. . )

 

We were, however, Nowhere near as exciting to see / hear as that Ice ensemble ! Truly superb that.

 

Have you ever seen the programme where an orchestra played using instruments made from parts of cars ? . . It detailed the making of all the instruments, and refining the sounds. The music they played at the end was remarkable. ( I forget the tune though )

 

It's bound to be out there on Youtube somewhere,. . I'll go and have a browse. . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Let's try this one. . .

 

https://www.treehugger.com/cars/orchestra-plays-on-intru

 

This is only a short vid, I couldn't find the complete show. . .sorry.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I believe the actual programme about this Pre-dated the FORD Focus car advertisement !

 

Achieving the correct pitch right on some of the string instruments, was difficult. I Know that this can be a problem as my youngest Daughter's partner Joel, Has been a Luthier for some years. . . .

 

I still have bits of his guitars littering my sheds and garage, as the kids lived with Mum and Dad for six years whilst saving for their own place. Getting that Intonation, ie the precise distance between the nut and the bridge correctly, whilst using standard gauge strings ( For non musicians ! ) is 'Interesting, especially when the instrument is not of a standard design, can be a pain, and certainly not as easy as one might assume.

 

This must have been quite a feat when making instruments from bits of an automobile. They would not have been able to fit all of this into a 50 minute programme, I seem to recall that the whole idea took some three months. . ..I shall look around and see if there is a video still available. Although it would probabaly only interest yourself,. . .and maybe Tim Heylbut. . .

 

Last week whilst rooting around my old workshop, I unearthed a disassembled Fender Stratocaster Guitar, although, I cannot find all of the parts, or I'd have a go at putting it back together myself. It has been partially re-fretted, but needs finishing, and then the body, which is now in bare wood, needs respraying. . .

 

A Winter project perhaps. . .the lad has switched hobbies now, as they live in a top floor apartment, with no sheds nor outbuildings to operate woodworking machinery etc. .. he has taken up photography instead. . . I have told him that if I EVER happen upon a picture of my Daughter on the interweb. . . without any clothes,. . .there will be nowhere to hide. . . .He is Swedish born, but brought up in Australia from a very early age, and you KNOW what these Swedes can be like, and as for Aussies. . . well. . . .

 

 

[facthunter]

Salt of the Earth, Phil. The best rough diamonds you will find. Always show DUE respect for authority. IF you return, we will treat you like royalty. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

You have to know how we treat royalty. ( the younger ones are OK sort of). Your musical knowledge impresses me by the way. I was forced to play classical piano at an early age. Definitely a severe form of child abuse, though I regret not going with music more than I did. Electric Guitars never were my thing. Currently I go to Jazz at a little Pub in Melbourne some Sundays.( Louisiana Shakers Melbourne U tube) at the Clyde, Charlton. Nev

 

 

[octave]

You have to know how we treat royalty. ( the younger ones are OK sort of). Your musical knowledge impresses me by the way. I was forced to play classical piano at an early age. Definitely a severe form of child abuse, though I regret not going with music more than I did. Electric Guitars never were my thing. Currently I go to Jazz at a little Pub in Melbourne some Sundays.( Louisiana Shakers Melbourne U tube) at the Clyde, Charlton. Nev

Yep as a music teacher I can say that there is nothing worse than a student who is forced to learn. Luckily this seems to happen less these day. I think as children have gained more autonomy they tend to move on to something they enjoy more. Most of my students young and old are pretty keen.

 

Nev the fact that you did learn some music as a child means that you have enough musical literacy to listen to and enjoy jazz now. I usually point out to parents that learning to play an instrument is not just about being able to bang out a tune but to get more enjoyment out of listening to music.

 

One of my favorite students was the fellow I taught about 10 years ago. At the time he would have been in his mid-seventies. He seemed to know a lot about music, both jazz and classical. Eventually, he told me that he was a volunteer announcer on a community arts radio station, this was interesting to me, but his next revelation was even more interesting. It turns out that he had been in the RAF as a fighter pilot and later a flying instructor. He flew many different aircraft including Meteors and Sycamore helicopters. Of course, he had great stories to tell but I could not really charge him money to come to his lesson and tell me stories. Eventually, he stopped having lessons but engaged me to go to his house and teach his granddaughter who would come home from school in her lunch time. Of course, I was offered a cup of tea before she arrived home. Over time this arrangement blew out to include lunch and then later on it became morning tea lunch and afternoon tea. We would spend hours talking about music, politics and of course flying. This guy was quite tall with thick silver hair and the most amazing and majestic eyebrows that looked like they had been sculpted by hours in an open cockpit. He has a rather posh softly spoken accent that always reminded me of a country English vicar. His surname is Hoare and his first name is Richard and yes he went by the shortened form of Richard, Dick Hoare.

 

 

[facthunter]

Thanks Octave. My most scary experience as a kid was playing a magnificent Black Grand piano at Newcastle Town Hall to a full audience. I only played one piece.. Humoresque A . Dvorak.. I think.. (without the music sheet in front of me. (got extra mention for that) My greatest love musically is things like the ABC Symphony Orchestra and I got to many of their renditions? as I could arrange. I also like good solo Trumpet. (hate saxophones, squeeky reedy). I enjoy the jazz. No one gets agro there and it doesn't hurt my ears. Wherever I've been during my flying I've always sought out a jazz event.. Nev

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Thanks Octave. My most scary experience as a kid was playing a magnificent Black Grand piano at Newcastle Town Hall to a full audience. I only played one piece.. Humoresque A . Dvorak.. I think.. (without the music sheet in front of me. (got extra mention for that) My greatest love musically is things like the ABC Symphony Orchestra and I got to many of their renditions? as I could arrange. I also like good solo Trumpet. (hate saxophones, squeeky reedy). I enjoy the jazz. No one gets agro there and it doesn't hurt my ears. Wherever I've been during my flying I've always sought out a jazz event.. Nev

That rattled the memory hole a little Nev, I remember going to a place in Little Collins Street, though I don't recall the name of the establishment nor whether it was a 'Bar' or actually a Pub. . .. They used to have a jazz night on Wednesdays and my Wife used to come with me every time, I felt a bit sorry for her as I Knew she didn't really appreciate jazz, preferring modern pop music. . .

 

Due to the impossibility of parking, and the fact that I would never drive anyway after drinking, We had to trek into the city and back on the red rattler all the way from Boronia then too ! The music was nice easy 'Trad' with different musicians each week. I do recall that we had to buy something called a 'Supper Ticket' if we wanted a drink after 10 in the evenings, the 'supper' consisting of some potato chips in a bowl, but apparently this was classed as 'Served Food' and circumvented the licencing laws at the time. I saw some really Good musicians at that place.

 

and it was always a really nice convivial atmsophere.

 

 

[facthunter]

There was a place called the ROCKS PUSH near Circular Quay, Sydney. Good till it became the "place to be seen" invaded by people who distinguished themselves by clapping at the wrong time and having sunburned women dressed in netty things with nipples sticking through. Sounds like fun but sooo Sydney and bad taste. I'm Not a wowser BUT... That's not jazz... Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

"obligation to read each individual note rather than using it as a guide"

 

that statement I never heard ever!

 

Something that Killed the Music for an awful lot of children,

 

spacesailor