new conservatives vic party

[storchy neil]

to pump water up hill as soon as you start to pump water there is a cost cant be done for nothing neil

 

 

[Bruce]

Storchys right Marty. The cost of the "green" electricity must be some weighted average of the direct solar/wind and the pumped hydro.

 

By the same token, the cost of polluting power must take into account the costs of pollution, for example a weighted portion of the damage done by climate change.

 

Big nuclear power would come out ahead if this were done properly.

 

 

[octave]

to pump water up hill as soon as you start to pump water there is a cost cant be done for nothing neil

Neil, do you honestly believe that when the functioning pumped storage plants were built that no one bothered to weigh up the efficiency. As you rightly point out we can not control when wind or solar power are produced, quite often they produce an excess to requirements and this is when water is pumped back into the upper reservoir. I think also electricity from the grid is used when it is at its cheapest and used to generate energy when it is at its most expensive. This as well as saving money contributes to grid stability. Pumped storage is not some theoretical notion, it is being done now and is very efficient.

 

Here is a list of currently operating pumped storage stations:List of pumped-storage hydroelectric power stations - Wikipedia

 

And as for efficiency: Pumped storage is the largest-capacity form of grid energy storage available, and, as of 2017, the DOE Global Energy Storage Database reports that PSH accounts for over 96% of all active tracked storage installations worldwide, with a total installed nameplate capacity of over 168 GW.[3] The round-trip energy efficiency of PSH varies between 70%–80%,[4][5][6][7] with some sources claiming up to 87%.[8] The main disadvantage of PHS is the specialist nature of the site required, needing both geographical height and water availability. Suitable sites are therefore likely to be in hilly or mountainous regions, and potentially in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and therefore there are also social and ecological issues to overcome.[9]

 

Pumped-storage hydroelectricity - Wikipedia

 

 

[facthunter]

Grid loses energy the further distance you go also. Motors, generators and transformers have a % energy loss. Pumped hydro isn't really any different in that respect 20-30 % and the source is unlimited if you use NOT COAL but wind and solar, tidal etc and NON POLLUTING. Hazelwood was at end of life and one of the most polluting Powerstations it the western world, although one of the cheapest to operate till you had to spend money on it and that time had arrived. It's closure should be celebrated and welcomed by anyone with concern for the planets future. The cleanup cost will cause concern for Engie who normally don't touch the type of generation that Hazelwood was. Heating water by a coil of hot wire is a waste of a form of energy like electricity. Look up ENTROPY... Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

proposed solar sites

 

1/125 ha of very fertile soil to produce 45 MW with 126,000 panels cost $50,000,000 generate 210 jobs

 

2/................very fertile soil ..................170 MW.................................cost $220,000,000 powering 80,000 homes

 

3/............... very fertile land...................175 MW.................................yet to be known

 

4/................. very fertile land ..................175 MW................................yet to be known

 

5 /.............. top grazing land .....................175 MW ..............................yet to be known

 

6 / ............ very fertile land ......................90 MW..................................yet to be known

 

fill in the blanks

 

question 1 How many tonnes of carbon is going to be produced by this scheme ?

 

my opinion makes a nuclear station look viable

 

As I wrote before cover vic in solar panels your gotta be joking neil

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

proposed solar sites1/125 ha of very fertile soil to produce 45 MW with 126,000 panels cost $50,000,000 generate 210 jobs

 

2/................very fertile soil ..................170 MW.................................cost $220,000,000 powering 80,000 homes

 

3/............... very fertile land...................175 MW.................................yet to be known

 

4/................. very fertile land ..................175 MW................................yet to be known

 

5 /.............. top grazing land .....................175 MW ..............................yet to be known

 

6 / ............ very fertile land ......................90 MW..................................yet to be known

 

fill in the blanks

 

question 1 How many tonnes of carbon is going to be produced by this scheme ?

 

my opinion makes a nuclear station look viable

 

As I wrote before cover vic in solar panels your gotta be joking neil

Neil it's nice see someone else is concerned about all our fertile land being covered over. This has been happening for generations as our cities sprawl out over our best farmland. Why suddenly worry about it now?

 

As I've been saying for decades, if every new building had to be roofed with solar panels then our cities would soon be exporting power. Large solar power stations tend to built inland where there's few cloudy days. Some of the "fertile farmland" there would struggle to run one camel per square kilometre.

 

 

[facthunter]

No one's ever going to cover Victoria in solar panels Neil. A "tiny" fraction of the Sahara would power the whole of Europe. How does solar produce carbon.?. We know carbon is used in agriculture based renewables. When you use solar and wind you don't add heat to the system. The heat from the sun would fall on the earth anyhow. The amount of wheat /acre generally wouldn't be a fraction of the soil lost by erosion and land clearing . Rooftop area will be more than enough, and it's getting more efficient all the time This can revolutionise the ordinary persons lives , designs of houses and change deserts .Nev

 

 

[octave]

my opinion makes a nuclear station look viable

Whilst I am not philosophically opposed to nuclear energy I can't really see it being economical for Australia. other than the waste problem something that concerns me is because of the expense of building a nuclear power plant it can only really be done by large companies from overseas. this concentrates a lot of power with a few people. renewables can be done more on a local scale by many small companies, it can be more decentralised. How many nuclear power plants do you need in order to provide competition?

 

Have a look at the problems with building of Hinkley Point C in Britain

 

Hinkley Point C nuclear power station - Wikipedia

 

 

[storchy neil]

so the construction and processing of solar panels does not make carbon oh sheeeet how silly off me

 

reflected heat from solar panels does not happen oh silly me once again

 

at the moment the twelve panels on my roof even with battery back up would not keep the fridge going 24/7

 

so to put solar panels on every roof whos going to pay a vast number of people paying their own home cant afford the rates let alone put solar panels on the roof neil

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

so the construction and processing of solar panels does not make carbon oh sheeeet how silly off me...l

Of course it does, Neil. So does construction of pretty much anything. The difference is, solar panels allow us to reduce the carbon output of fossil fuel power stations.

 

...reflected heat from solar panels does not happen oh silly me once again...l

Solar panels absorb the sun's energy. How could they "reflect heat"?

 

...at the moment the twelve panels on my roof even with battery back up would not keep the fridge going 24/7...l

Sounds like you should get someone to check the efficiency of your fridge and panels.

 

...to put solar panels on every roof whos going to pay a vast number of people paying their own home cant afford the rates let alone put solar panels on the roof neil

Solar installation is one of our few growth industries, employing mobs of people who might otherwise have been out of a job...on welfare perhaps.

 

I suggested that all NEW buildings should be roofed with PVs, Neil. The technology is proven and the costs are coming down fast. Australians have been building the world's biggest houses. If we made them just a little less humungous and installed PVs on the roof we'd save money.

 

 

[facthunter]

We have some of the biggest Caravans as well. I thought a holiday was to see what's outside of your van not play with the computer under the annex the same as you do at home. Some of these rigs need an empty caravan park to turn in, and you tow a patrol to go shopping. A house shouldn't take most of your life to pay off, if you get your priorities right. Bigger shed , Smaller house. You should not be run poor trying to show you are rich . Nev

 

 

[octave]

so the construction and processing of solar panels does not make carbon oh sheeeet how silly off mereflected heat from solar panels does not happen oh silly me once again

 

at the moment the twelve panels on my roof even with battery back up would not keep the fridge going 24/7

 

so to put solar panels on every roof whos going to pay a vast number of people paying their own home cant afford the rates let alone put solar panels on the roof neil

While coal-powered technology used up 1050 g of carbon dioxide per kwH of electricity over its lifetime (a median estimate measured in CO2 eq/kwH), solar PV consumed 55 g CO2 eq/kWh. Nuclear power used 12 CO2 eq/kwH.

 

Lifetime greenhouse emissions of solar PV systems vs. coal-powered systems | CNG Solar Engineering

 

Carbon footprint of solar panels under microscope

 

Life-cycle greenhouse-gas emissions of energy sources - Wikipedia

 

 

[spacesailor]

Anyone know how the PV are made?, I was under the impression that it took huge amounts of electric power to "grow"them, (nuke-power that is).

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

There are a couple of lawsuits already initiated in California against fossil fuel companies seeking damages for the costs of climate change. It is hard to see them succeeding under Trump, but the writing is on the wall for the future.

 

Factor in the costs of being held legally responsible for your percentage of climate change costs and fossil fuels don't look so good compared with nuclear.

 

 

[octave]

Anyone know how the PV are made?, I was under the impression that it took huge amounts of electric power to "grow"them, (nuke-power that is).spacesailor

 

Lifetime greenhouse emissions of solar PV systems vs. coal-powered systems | CNG Solar Engineering

 

 

[facthunter]

Temperature is not energy. A filament in a light bulb is very hot but there's not much of it. Electrolytic refining is where a lot of electrical energy is used in a huge LOAD rating situation. eg Aluminium and that industry has probably been highly subsidised by various governments. in the past. WE Need Aluminium and magnesium and scrap steel and those processes will need electrical energy. No privateer will fund coal and I hope any government that does it is kicked out fast, because THEY would have to be on the TAKE (corrupt) in a big way to go down that road regardless of which side of politics they are on. There's plenty of ways to store energy if you are fair dinkum. Perhaps GOVE can come to life again. Mine salt water for magnesium and get desal as well. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...Perhaps GOVE can come to life again...

That would be nice, Nev. A huge great industrial complex abandoned. A great town in a beautiful area left to rust away. They say Governments are the biggest wastrels, but private corporations might be worse.

 

 

[storchy neil]

nev the mobile home I have can and does run on second hand deep fryer oil from fish and chip shop carried 3x200 ltr drums or diesel in ten years have not found a park that I could not get into neil

 

 

[Marty_d]

nev the mobile home I have can and does run on second hand deep fryer oil from fish and chip shop carried 3x200 ltr drums or diesel in ten years have not found a park that I could not get into neil

Is that why you like Pauline, Neil... she gives you a good price on the deep fryer oil?

 

 

[facthunter]

They might like the aroma Neil and your personality must count too. Caravan parks are the only option for a lot these days. I've seen some neat setups with the permanents. Just hate it when councils close that feature up. They don't know what homelessness means. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

no nev the caravan park only to resupply water two hundred ltrs do the washing most of the time free camping

 

temora was funny when I pulled in this bloke wanted to know what fuel I was using and was worried about that aroma when told that I was using oil from the fish and chip shop would not believe me so I opened the drum put in a hose pulled it out an said here taste it he nearly had a heart attack when I licked the hose

 

he thought it was good idea that using old cooking oil in his winnabago would save him money it don't work on the new motors didn't like the idea putting a fourty year old motor in the new winna neil

 

 

[facthunter]

Every person I know using it has stuffed their engine. Might work on an old AEC , Perkins etc.. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

Bedford 500 neil

 

 

[spacesailor]

Whats the difference between the old diesels using biodiesel, & the newer motor that can't. (4M40)

 

Short version please.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[willedoo]

I guess the point is how do different forms of energy stack up when audited from cradle to grave.

It would be interesting to see the final break down of each alternative system's carbon footprint.

 

For solar, we need sand mines, copper mines, bauxite mines, iron ore mines, drill rigs and oil wells, cotton farms, fertilizer plants and all the associated industries to produce the final product. The mind boggles. And solar is maybe one of the better ones.