green power solar is

[storchy neil]

by 2050 china will have 20,000,000 tonnes of solar panel that will have to be recycled now that's a lot off scrap neil

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Hinkley Point C will alone have 3,000,000 tonnes of concrete poured. There are two other facilities in that plant. Only need to find 5 more facilities and that's a lot of rather environmentally nasty concrete around at the same weight... But, this is a large facility, so assume 10 more facilities.. not hard to find within the tiny UK. Coal plants use less and Gas even less.. But concrete alone for these in Aus will easily exceed 20m tonnes.

 

Each generation source has their advantages and disadvantages and its about finding the right mix that maximises output/reliability v environmental and economic cost - the priority between economic and environmental cost seemingly tilting to the latter.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

by 2050 china will have 20,000,000 tonnes of solar panel that will have to be recycled now that's a lot off scrap neil

Not nearly as much scrap as other industries create. Solar panels will be quite valuable, even at the end of their useful life. They contain a lot of almost pure silicon.

 

Waste generates lots of jobs. Given the rate at which robots are displacing human workers, the silicon recycling industry would be a valuable employment opportunity.

 

 

[storchy neil]

sorry o k according to the china paper the cost recycling silicon is not worth the cost neil

 

 

[octave]

sorry o k according to the china paper the cost recycling silicon is not worth the cost neil

 

Post a link please Neil

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Think this is it: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2104162/chinas-ageing-solar-panels-are-going-be-big-environmental-problem

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

sorry o k according to the china paper the cost recycling silicon is not worth the cost neil

So Neil, is there anything else about renewables you object to?

 

 

[storchy neil]

well o k just goes to show there is two sides to every story sorry neil

 

 

[octave]

China’s solar panels are going to be a big environmental problem[/url]

Of course, any technology has its pros and cons. Consider the disposal or recycling of computer equipment.

 

Reading the whole article does present a mixed picture.

 

"In Europe, some companies are reported to have developed sophisticated technology to reclaim more than 90 per cent of the materials.

 

But the western technology might face a hard sell in China, according to Tian"

 

.“If a recycling plant carries out every step by the book to achieve low pollutant emission, their products can end up being more expensive than new raw materials,” he said.

 

A sales manager of a solar power recycling company believes there could be a way to dispose of China’s solar junk, nonetheless.

 

“We can sell them to Middle East,” said the manager who requested not to be named.

 

“Our customers there make it very clear that they don’t want perfect or brand new panels. They just want them cheap,” he said.

 

“They are re-selling these panels to household users living in deserts. There, there is lots of land to install a large amount of panels to make up for their low performance,” the manager added.

 

“Everyone is happy with the result,” he added.

 

 

[storchy neil]

well thats good put all the old solar panels in the desert 20 000000 tonnes wont take long for shifting sand to berry problem solved neil

 

 

[facthunter]

WHO is this "everyone" person. Seems to be quoted often but none find him/her. It's like Nobody's perfect but he's on this site. and available... so ask him.

 

"Silent majority" don't make any noise about anything. Squeaky wheels get oil. The left wing has equal influence on an aeroplane in flight.. Solar Panels aren't a silly con. THAT'S what they are made of (one of the most common substances in the earth's crust

 

Neil is fighting a losing battle with this topic. Even the Business Council of Australia want stuff he hates.

 

Wind farms make you sick, endanger the spiflicated warbler and cause climate change, ( if they are turned up too far), and they blow powerlines over in SA. THOSE winds were not a natural climate event. They didn't happen before windfarms .. 2+2 make er something or other. Anyhow it's obvious the two are connected. It just doesn't add up if you can't see that. Blind Freddy CAN see it. It's as plain as the nose on your face

 

Coal is the answer to poverty in the developing world but will make a few millionaires a lot richer as well, (especially the generous ones who kick in for the Party) if we don't let the POOR to get solar first. ALL the talk about pollution is made up by greenies who have a vested interest in having trees to hug.THEY want Timber mills to close down, before all the forests are used up. What a waste.!.

 

Another thing.... Queensland has a great future as the landfill capital of the world. All the big coal mine holes are potential GOLD mines really, Like they will make GOLD (money) get it? if you have eyes to see.. We need as many big holes as possible for the future disposal of the stuff from Bunnings, plus, 3 year old cars, birthday presents for last year. PLASTIC..bags. Hospital waste. etc. You don't want it down the end of your street, do you? (By the way the last question is NOT in the exam . It is too contentious and divisive, I am advised. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

well o k just goes to show there is two sides to every story sorry neil

Yes that's true Neil. I've seen quite a bit of both sides during 40 years working in solar design, and have read an awful lot about solar energy and other renewables during that time. What stands out is the dogged persistence of those who want to protect wasteful, polluting industries. When one lot of their twaddle has been proven wrong they come up with another

 

 

[facthunter]

The usual last retreat is "Well, I'll be dead by the time that happens". Don't a lot of them have Kids? I've even heard bringing THAT up is emotional blackmail. There's thousands still dieing NOW in coalmines and plenty outside of them die of other air pollution effects. One of MY ancestors died of silicosis, SLOWLY from the effects of coalmining in Newcastle. The truth is "There's money in coal so you all can go see a taxidermist, because we want to keep making money". Those coal seams are sedimentary and as well as CARBON which forms CO2 which makes the earth warmer and the Oceans ACIDIC there are heavy metals and other toxic substances released when it's combusted. There's mountains of sulphur produced from refining OIL Though "Bunker fuel" has about 7% sulphur still in it and if you live in Mosman you're copping that from cruise ships parked there burning it for the generators etc. It only forms sulphuric acid so don't worry. It brings in income for somebody. and that makes it OK. Nev

 

 

[octave]

well thats good put all the old solar panels in the desert 20 000000 tonnes wont take long for shifting sand to berry problem solved neil

So your in depth research has found that solar power is not viable in the middle east because it will get covered in shifting sand. Neil, you just made that up didn't you? As it happens the middle east is quite enthusiastic about solar power. Solar Power Invades Oil-Rich Middle East

 

Can I ask why you are so concerned about the recycling of solar panels but not the decommissioning of coal plants or the disposal coal combustion products Coal Ash Basics | US EPA

 

The recycling of solar panels is minuscule compared to the nuclear industry Inside Sellafield: how the UK's most dangerous nuclear site is cleaning up its act

 

 

[spacesailor]

We had the same disposal problem with glass!.

 

Uneconomic to recycle, so a machine was invented to crush glass bottles down to the consistency of sand, other than adding it to road tar, or putting it in compost.

 

Idea's are wanted for a good use, personally used it in concrete and epoxy.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes solar doesn't want heat It wants Photons. Coal doesn't work well at high temps either. They manage to keep the sand off roads out in the centre. It's not a desert like the Sahara where it's a bigger problem even encroaching on farms around the Nile. Perhaps roads could be solar panels. It's only about 120 years since horses could be replaced by the infernal combustion engine, that wastes 3/4 of the energy of burning fossil fuel. Imagine what the next 100 years could bring if we worked sensibly together instead of thinking open slather capitalism fixes everything, when for one thing it's based on short term profit with no offset for the damage caused. Continuation of that situation could NOT bring about a good outcome. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

on mobile home have had solar panels since 1990 that is have had solar panels since 1990 how man times do I have to repeat it neil

 

 

[facthunter]

Because YOU rubbish them, you would have to convince us otherwise, in those circumstances. Was putting them on the mobile home an aberration or a mistake? My first installation was a disaster from the economics point of view, but I know more about these things now, and what I got for $14,000 I can now get for $ 4,000 and it's better stuff. (more efficient). Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

We are ruled ( maybe over run ) by spin doctors. It just amazes me the amounf of rubbish spouted by experts on the emdia about solar, re cyclable etc.

 

Pity the poor politician he doesn't know what to think or even if he should.

 

 

[facthunter]

They can find out the information if they wanted to Yenn. Their lack of direction has cost US billions. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

No comments on concrete made of glass !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[storchy neil]

Because YOU rubbish them, you would have to convince us otherwise, in those circumstances. Was putting them on the mobile home an aberration or a mistake? My first installation was a disaster from the economics point of view, but I know more about these things now, and what I got for $14,000 I can now get for $ 4,000 and it's better stuff. (more efficient). Nev

 

where have I rubbished solar panels what I have done is point out at the start is that by 2050 there will be 20,000,000 tonnes off solar panels in china

 

that shift 20,000,000 tonnes to the desert that has shifted the problem from china to the desert so when the sand covers them up no more problems

 

else where I have stated that with solar panels you need back up base load

 

I have stated that I was going to put on solar power to my house at the cost of 18,000 dollars when along came the scheme from the labour government the paid me 9,000 dollars half off what it was going to cost me and paid me 66 cent per kw hr I put into the grid until 2025

 

else where I have stated that the biggest killer of solar is the bloody fridge and that you need a back up gen on the mobile home

 

I have stated that you will have to cover vic in solar panels to get a base load to run all the industries in vic

 

also stated that from my front door there is 6 solar panel facing west why do the panels very near face north

 

so nev old mate please show me neil

 

 

[facthunter]

The west facing panels are orientated to work best in the afternoon.( the hottest time of the day) to offset airconditioner use. I don't know where you are getting some of those facts so I can't address them one at a time. Back up and base load are two different concepts. Back up has to be on standby and people don't make money that way unless they charge like a wounded bull, for the facility. You can't back up with critical coal. It takes ages to get going and isn't flexible. Gas, Hydro Battery, and a few other possibilities will do that. Nev

 

 

[octave]

2050 there will be 20,000,000 tonnes off solar panels in chinathat shift 20,000,000 tonnes to the desert that has shifted the problem from china to the desert so when the sand covers them up no more problems

Neil, have you actually read the article? You seem to talk as if the panels will go to the middle east for disposal but in fact, although their output will have been diminished they are still viable. Much like you sell an older car and someone buys it cheap knowing that it will not perform as well as it did when it was new the nonetheless still usable. The middle east has expressed interest in purchasing these panels because they are still viable especially in that environment.

 

I am not sure why you keep talking about these panels getting buried in sand? I am really not sure what you are getting at.

 

else where I have stated that the biggest killer of solar is the bloody fridge and that you need a back up gen on the mobile home

Again poor design, why would you power a fridge of batteries when you can have a gas fridge or even a 3 way fridge which you could run on low voltage when there is a surplus of power of 240v when mains power is available or lpg, I cant see any reason to run a fridge from a generator. That being said in the area where I lived for 23 years and still own a house many of my neighbours did run large fridges from solar and battery. Sure their power systems were costly but so was the upfront cost to connect to the grid.

 

For the average person in the city or suburbs, it is not economically viable to be totally disconnected from the grid unless you are an enthusiast. But solar with feedback to the grid and battery storage is viable if still a little expensive for the average person

 

 

Nobody is suggesting that you can provide base load with solar panels alone, no one is suggesting this covering all of Victoria with solar panels, this is just in your imagination. The grid will increasingly be powered from many sources as well as increased storage. A mix of photovoltaic solar, thermal solar wind and for the near term some fossil fuels.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Some bamboo, please

 

China Just Built A 250-Acre Solar Farm Shaped Like A Giant Panda

 

Though one thing about solar farms is they must shade an awful lot if ground - wonder what the environmental impact is (disclaimer - too lazy to do research and I know some sun gets through)