green power solar is

[octave]

I received a lengthy email yesterday regarding the renewable power generation. It said the biggest problem is that the distribution grid was built to cater for coal mines and coal power generation, and is a long way from wind farms, solar farms or hydro schemes. The power generated by these renewable schemes cannot be fed into the grid, and some are generating power that cannot be used, without overloading the distribution system.

 

This is not true I suspect. Although each for of generation presents unique challenges the grid is adapting.

 

Here is the current miix of generation in Australia (live) Live Supply & Demand Widget, sponsored by RenewEconomy |

 

Here are cvountries that are intergrating renewables to a high level 12 Countries Leading the Way in Renewable Energy

 

It does pay to fact check claims, I would even urge you to fact check any thing I post.

 

 

[storchy neil]

you blokes finally getting to look at the big pitcher your so called green power aint going to be cheep

 

your solar farms are like putting 24 volts through a 12 volts system the wireing aint going to take it oh dear whats the use

 

10 tonne of card board being removed from a solar farm a day what a bout the plastic and stirofoam where is it going you don't need to know

 

not that you care as far as my mate knows there aint any MADE IN AUSTRALIA PARTS all he has seen made in china neil

 

 

[octave]

your solar farms are like putting 24 volts through a 12 volts system the wireing aint going to take it

Not sure what exactly you mean. The grid takes power from many sources, it buys from the cheapest source at any one time. Why is "your solar farm like putting 24 volts through a 12 volt system." Sorry but I am interested in facts and I don't understand why you seem to think that the power from solar farms is unregulated (voltage wise). Please post more details.

 

10 tonne of card board being removed from a solar farm a day

Are you sure you didn't just make this up? How are the components required to build a coal fired power station packaged for delivery? Where are the components required to build a coal fired power plant manufactured? I guess you are trying suggest that solar power has a high environmental cost. This of course is worth analysing but you have to compare all of the inputs required for each form of generation, You cannot just ignore the inputs required to build and fuel a power plant over its entire life. A solar plant or wind etc has most of its inputs up front and then require very little to run.

 

Are these facilities just white elephants that are "like putting 24volts through a 12 volt system whaterver tha means

 

The nine biggest solar power plants in the world

 

Do you have problems with thermal solar power plants? What about using renewables to split water into hydrogen and oxygen and using the hyrogen as fuel by burning it or by combining it oxygen in a fuel cell as NASA has done for more than 50 years. This is quickly becoming the cheap and clean option.

 

Hydrogen: Has its time come? | Pursuit by The University of Melbourne

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Interesting stuff, Octave. I've been pushing solar since the 1970's and have endured no end of criticism from knockers who couldn't see how dependent on fossil fuels our way of life has become. Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined how fast we have taken up renewable energy.

 

Those solar farms are good news, but perpetuate the old idea of centralised power stations; every roof in our cities should be a solar power station, so that valuable farming country is not lost (although coal burners bugger up far more land).

 

 

[nomadpete]

The present electricity grid(and suburban distribution network) is happily and reliably operating in both directions now that distributed grid feed localised small scale generation has become the norm. That is, it generally works to supply domestic consumers and when the sun shines on all those rooftop solar panels, the grid happily redistributes that energy.

 

The conventional big generators are relieved of some coal burning duties, and so far there has NOT been any grid instability as a result.

 

 

[facthunter]

The" instability" is in their ability to maintain an effective monopoly of Coal and the profits at a level they love. The grid has been a cost impost with a cost plus bill paid for any extra expense without the promised price lowering competition happening. Like service stations who just happen to increase prices like fish swim ALL turn together as if with one mind..

 

Wind farms generally are located near existing grids and hydro has always been connected to the grid. Naturally there will be adjustment s in capacity( carrying ability )to reflect usage, supply and demand patterns. Electricity flows both ways in a wire as demand and supply dictate. The grid is Synchronous alternating current. all made to fit a frequency and in phase before it's connected. other wise it destroys the infrastructure at it's weakest point instantly. There will be times when power is surplus and has to be sent somewhere. or not connected. STORAGE is the answer there and applies to all forms of generation. At those times the power is likely to be available at below cost . To sell it back at periods of high demand is a logical development to make a profit . Nev..

 

 

[willedoo]

There's a 60 hectare solar farm about a kilometer from my place. It's on a floodplain, but the panels are high and the substation is built on a filled pad to keep it out of flood reach. Early in the morning and late in the afternoon it reflects glare like a mirror. The panels are not the problem - they're more matt black in colour and don't glare, but the galvanized framework reflects the sun.

 

In time, that will oxidize and not be noticeable. Last year was the farm's first summer and the glare was so bad you couldn't look at it. Even with sunglasses, it hurt your eyes. This summer, it's about 18 months old, and while still glarey, you can look at it without hurting your eyes. The local council that built it promised there would be no glare, but they didn't anticipate the galvanized framework.

 

 

[facthunter]

You get similar off Large sheds and warehouses when they are new. Very noticeable when flying.. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

When your shed roof oxidises, it get's a daam site hotter inside.

 

So go paint those EYE catching roofs, a nice shade of WHITE !

 

The flyer passing over my tin shed should be happier to look down now. LoL

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

Let it dull off before you paint it. The paint will stay on longer then, otherwise you need an etch and be careful with that. Nev

 

 

[coljones]

The usual last retreat is "Well, I'll be dead by the time that happens". Don't a lot of them have Kids? I've even heard bringing THAT up is emotional blackmail. There's thousands still dieing NOW in coalmines and plenty outside of them die of other air pollution effects. One of MY ancestors died of silicosis, SLOWLY from the effects of coalmining in Newcastle. The truth is "There's money in coal so you all can go see a taxidermist, because we want to keep making money". Those coal seams are sedimentary and as well as CARBON which forms CO2 which makes the earth warmer and the Oceans ACIDIC there are heavy metals and other toxic substances released when it's combusted. There's mountains of sulphur produced from refining OIL Though "Bunker fuel" has about 7% sulphur still in it and if you live in Mosman you're copping that from cruise ships parked there burning it for the generators etc. It only forms sulphuric acid so don't worry. It brings in income for somebody. and that makes it OK. Nev

It doesn't impact Mosman much but there is a cruise terminal at Balmain that the government refuses to rig up with decent power so the ships keep the power generators going to provide shipboard power. I'm not sure if they have moved to low sulphur fuel. The local electorate is held by the greens, unlikely to be won by the LNP, so is at the end of a single finger salute from the government. Mosman is a coalition seat.

 

 

[storchy neil]

why don't the shipping companies put on solar panels oh that's right no gov hand out :peep wall:neil

 

 

[spacesailor]

Being a old-fart pensioner, I'm hanging out for the Free solar panels, That will be in excess shortly, owing to no more rebate scheme.

 

Hoping that the government can pick them up cheap enough to slap onto any vacant roof. LoL

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

I agree with u space. When they were selling for 0$ I bought some (6) and now I reckon I could add 3 more without upgrading the wiring. My only problems are the price and whether the forces of evil will be looking at sat pics of my roof and thinking I've done something illegal.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Bruce, You've hit the nail on the head !.

 

When the Government runs low on income it WILL resort to Dirty tactics reaping or Raping any way it can to raise revenue.

 

Bring in GST (VAT) but still collect All the other taxes as well, Stinks.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[red750]

I had to go out to special vet in Bayswater a couple of days ago. Noticed a service station with a lot of panels on the roof. Checked Google Satellite view - counted 80 panels.

 

And look at these factories in Bayswater.

 

[ATTACH]49777._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[Bruce]

If they don't have battery backup, then the supply system needs to cross them out as a power source and have standby power as backup, so the savings equal nothing.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Backup power sources are needed less if we have decent national interconnections to share power.

 

Battery systems are coming down in price and lots of them are being set up. Meanwhile, lots of other storage technologies are being developed. These are driving economic local development, employing people...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Yesterday I got to try out living without mains power; a team of linemen were replacing the insulators on our local line in 37 degree heat. We get more blackouts than most because our district only has one feed-in line, but I'm not rushing into going off grid until batteries get cheaper.

 

Using a cheap inverter I was able to run fridges and freezer for over an hour, and my lightweight LiFePO4 booster pack only lost half a volt. There's an awful lot of energy in those little batteries.

 

 

[Bruce]

How many amps were you drawing for that hour, old K? And how many volts is your LiFe booster pack? It sure did a good job for you.

 

If it was a 12 volt booster pack, my guess is that it would be supplying 300 watts to run a fridge and a freezer, that is 300/12 amps or 25 amps.

 

If it was a 24 volt booster, then 12.5 amps etc. This is assuming the inverter losses are included in the 300 watts.

 

You wouldn't be wise to make a cup of tea with a kettle like mine ( 2000watts).

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Can't say how much power it draws, Bruce. The damned inverter has a couple of noisy fans, so I can't easily hear if the fridge motor is running, but it presume it is after several hours of no power on a blistering hot day.

 

I replaced the old lead acid battery in my 12v car starter pack with four LiFePO4 cells. They can crank a 3litre diesel and the voltage is barely affected.

 

Looks like all I need is this inverter and starter pack to run fridges and freezer for an hour or so during blackouts such as this. I happy with its performance (except the noisey fans). My wife gave me a fold-out solar panel that quickly recharges it.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Just in case anyone thinks our federal government is competent in anything:

 

Government accused of doing 'bugger all' to shore up Australia's fuel security

 

 

[red750]

Here's one for you to attack and debunk.I was sent this by email.

 

OH COME ON..YOU ALL BELIEVE IN GLOBAL WARMING AND THE CARBON TAX ‘ YOU ARE AUSTRALIANS!!

 

INTERESTING.

 

Hmmm - saving the planet - here we go!

 

Here's a small sample of how many coal plants there are in the world today.

 

The EU has 468 plants building 27 more for a total of 495

 

Turkey has 56 plants building 93 more total 149

 

South Africa has 79 building 24 more total 103

 

India has 589 building 446 more total 1036

 

Philippines has 19 building 60 more total 79

 

South Korea has 58 building 26 more total 84

 

Japan has 90 building 45 more total 135

 

AND CHINA has 2363 building 1171 total 3534

 

Here come our AUSTRALIAN politicians that are going to shut down our 6

remaining plants and save the planet !!

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

On the assumption that the figures are correct, there are a couple of things to think about:

 

• We don't know over what period the new ones are being built versus old ones being decommissioned.
   
  
• I am guessing the new EU plants are those in the eastern bloc or very small power producers. European Energy Producers Commit to No New Coal Plants after 2020 | UNFCCC. I know that the UK, Germany, Italy and France are looking at going coal free.
   
  
• The South African plants are far from committed: RPT-South Africa's new coal-fired plants must have emissions technology | Reuters
   
  
• China has issued hundreds of suspension notices for new plants, however, decades of corruption are hard to reverse. That said, I would not believe 1171 new plants will see the light of day: Worries over China coal power boom. China did also annouce a halt to new plants that are not already in construction or some such announcement.
   
  
• Just because others are doing the wrong thing - does it mean we should follow - or should we lead? Based on the above logic, some countries allow various forms of battery [edit - as in offences against the person /edit] that we don't - should we simply just allow it because everyone else does? It is not only warming that coal burning contributes to; consider subsidence,land poisoning, air pollution, etc. I was at a coal plant in Ledvice in the Czech Republic and the local area was devastated by the ash pollution (they didn't have scrubbers installed). Of course, we had a higher level of environmental regulatory requirements.
   
  
• I am no longer up to date with Aussie coal power stations - but do they have the latest and greatest emissions management tech that *should* be being incorporated into newer plants?
   
  

 

 

[pmccarthy]

The numbers are true and Australia is shooting itself in both feet. CO2 makes plants grow, the global warming scam is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on humans.