green power solar is

[pmccarthy]

I would like the inevitable move to more renewables to happen because they become more attractive and lower cost, not because leftist agitators demand immediate changes. It is happening, it will happen, we don’t need the Paris climate agreement or demonising coal. Different countries have different resources and capabilities. Australia is fortunate in its natural resources including coal, solar and wind, lets use them all.

 

 

[octave]

Germany is 12% domestic nuclear, 40% coal, gas 13%, wind 12%

This adds up to 77% and does not include solar. The figures I have are from 2014 and are Nuclear 14.8% Brown coal 24.9%, Hard coal 18.3% Natural gas 8.6% Wind 14.4% Solar 6.9%, Biomass 8.7% Hydro 3.5%. By the way, I agree that nuclear plants should not be shut down early for the following reasons. Nuclear power plants are very expensive up front but cheap to run therefore the difficult bit has already been done. In terms of waste, the waste from an operating power plant is a drop in the ocean compared to the decommissioning costs, therefore, it seems to me that it would be more sensible to keep them running whilst ensuring safety standards are maintained.

 

Petersen states that when Germany installed renewable power stations it's co2 emissions went up. This is not true between 1990 and 2017 Germanys co2 emissions declined by 28 %. Surely you would agree that Peterson is a) misinformed or b) being misleading. I am more than happy to admit that Germany is unlikely to hit it's 2020 target but I don't see this as a dismal failure. I wanted to lose 10kg before Christmas I only managed 6 kg, not a total success but hardly a dismal failure.

 

 

[octave]

I would like the inevitable move to more renewables to happen because they become more attractive and lower cost, not because leftist agitators demand immediate changes. It is happening, it will happen, we don’t need the Paris climate agreement or demonising coal. Different countries have different resources and capabilities. Australia is fortunate in its natural resources including coal, solar and wind, lets use them all.

Then we are not so far apart. Where I disagree with you is that you seem to think that the push for renewables only comes from beardy greenies who want to bring down capitalism, yes these people exist and they annoy the hell out of me. I have some quite conservative friends and we do debate many issues but I never equate their positions with the far right nutters. having read what I have posted do you believe I am a lefty beardy anti-capitalist activist?

 

As I have said before I am an optimist, if we don't accept that there is a need for change then the next generation will take action when they are in powerful positions.

 

There is always resistance to new technology. Early cars were not necessarily cheaper than a horse but the problem of horse shit in the street needed to be solved. Early cars were not the best economic choice. Governments did subsidize the car by build roads and highways. Would cars have become ubiquitous if roads had to be built solely by those few who owned a car?

 

I believe the reason that coal is struggling is not because of a few beardy lefties but rather it is a poor investment. From a purely economic standpoint, I personally would not invest in a coal-fired power station that has a life of 60 years and its payback period is - well I am not sure but it must be quite long when we are on the cusp of change. Just by way of an example, lets say someone came to me and said I am going to design and build internal combustion engines, are you in, well no, I would be thinking that my investment was a bit risky since most car manufacturers have already announced their intention to only produce EVs within the next few years. I believe that this is the problem for fossil fuels. Even if you think we are a few years away from deriving substantial portions of our power from renewables the fact is we are not talking about if, we are talking about when. Why would anyone favour a power plant that requires mining of coal transport of coal and burning of coal in such a way as not to have a negative effect on the population over one that does not?

 

What I am saying is that we are probably closer than many people think. To say things like "solar, but what you haven't thought of is what happens at night" is to invite ridicule. Don't ask me this question just debate with me the problems with gravity storage or the progress in the development of batteries etc.

 

I think a huge problem is illustrated in this forum, this thread is under politics, to my mind it should under science. What effect the composition of the earth's atmosphere has on its ability to retain heat and thus affect the climate is purely scientific. The power generation options are science and engineering. I will agree that what we do about it does have a political side but we have to be intelligent enough (on both sides) to get beyond this.

 

I can assure you that I am not a beardy anti-capitalist and I do not imagine that you are a right wing nut job.

 

 

[octave]

P.S. I do hope the previous post makes sense. I spent the first half of the day doing renovations (tiling) but being a long weekend I decided to enter into intimate relations with a bottle (or 2) of pepper jacks shiraz. This relationship has gone way past 1st base and I am sliding into home plate

 

 

[willedoo]

Octave, you don't look very beardy in your avatar. And I think you made a typo in the last sentence, assuming you meant anti-capitalist.

 

 

[octave]

Octave, you don't look very beardy in your avatar.

Actually, I did have a beardy period. Between 1979 and 1991 I was in the RAAF and therefore cleanly shaven. When I left I did rebel against that and grew a pretty substantial beard. Here is a pic of me in my hippy years. My beard earned me a job as an extra in a film. Here is a picture with my son now 29. I think this would have been the early 90s. I keep thinking about growing a beard again but I fear it would not be lush and ginger but would be pathetic and grey.

 

[ATTACH]49809._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[willedoo]

My film career never got off the ground. I was offered a role as an extra, not for the beard, but because I was white. It was in Jakarta in the mid 80's and the pay for a day was 12 USD and free lunch. All you had to do was lie on the ground and pretend to be a dead Dutch soldier. Couldn't do it though, as I was booked on the ferry to leave that day.

 

Apparently it was common back then in Jakarta for film companies to scour the streets for white tourists as movie extras. One bloke I talked to was an extra. He had to sit at a seedy bar in Jakarta with a few other people and look around when the gangster walked in. Same pay, $12 plus lunch. In local currency, that was equivalent to a labourer's wages for a week.

 

 

[willedoo]

Actually, I did have a beardy period. Between 1979 and 1991 I was in the RAAF and therefore cleanly shaven. When I left I did rebel against that and grew a pretty substantial beard. Here is a pic of me in my hippy years. My beard earned me a job as an extra in a film. Here is a picture with my son now 29. I think this would have been the early 90s. I keep thinking about growing a beard again but I fear it would not be lush and ginger but would be pathetic and grey.

Octave, you could play the role of an Irishman with that beard and getup.

 

 

[octave]

Octave, you could play the role of an Irishman with that beard and getup.

Yeah, I was cast as a farmer. the film was called "On our selection" Dad and Dave: On Our Selection (1995) - IMDb filmed in Braidwood NSW. Part of it was filmed across the road from our property where they built a bush house and dam etc. One of the scenes involved me walking out of the local courthouse with "Dad" Leo Mckern, we run into each other and he pushes me out of the way. Also stared Geoffrey Rush. I like to say "yes I have worked with Geoffrey"

 

 

The pay was pretty good and they are legally bound to give you a meal. One of the crew told me that they refer to extras as "scenery that eats"

 

 

[Litespeed]

The German government today announced it will completely stop burning coal for power by 2038 at the latest but possible by 2030 or earlier.

 

They are a very pragmatic and science based bunch- they see the writing on the wall.

 

All this crap about plastics is all

 

Propaganda to justify big oil. We already can and have been able to for 100 years make plastics from biological sources. Advances in biotechnology now make it possible to use bacteria to do it.

 

I say get your head out of the sand or for some their posterior and see that change is coming and is needed now, not when 50 Celsius is the new norm for summer.

 

Hands up who is commenting has a science degree? One in biological and environmental sciences?

 

I studied this at uni in the early 90's and it was obvious back then. I have a grey beard and longish hair- must be a lefty greenie then. I care about this planet and the future of humanity and all species.

 

To paraphrase a redneck sticker, " if you don't love this planet, then leave".

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Octave I think we agree on most things. And I am not so coherent as you after a good Pepperjack.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The real problem is us. There are just too many of us. I was born in 1950 and there were just over 2 billion inhabitants of this planet. Now there are 7.7 billion and it is forecast there will be 8 billion by 2023. I reckon we will hit 8 billion by the end of this year. There are more than 6 million extra people on earth since new years eve. This is just unsustainable.

 

 

[spacesailor]

" we'd have no double plug thongs without the oil industry"

 

Is that those skimpy things South-American women wear at the beach, Can's see the connection "Double Plug".

 

Or am I missing the point of a good joke ?.

 

Back to the fray,

 

I did my tiny: little: bit:, (three).

 

Put out my solar panel to make that Sun earn it's keep .

 

Solar running Fan, radio, Lathe & out of sight, water feature, four small contributions to the environment, Not grid connected[ATTACH]49810._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

I tried to put thumbnail but were too tiny.

 

[ATTACH]49811._xfImport[/ATTACH]spacesailor

 

[Bruce]

On that super-hot day in Adelaide, I saw hundreds of wind-generators from the air and none of them were moving.

 

Apparently the spot price of electricity went to 14,500 dollars per MWh, or $14.50 per kWh.

 

Gosh, my car could have spun a generator at 100 kW and earned me $1450 per hour. I wonder why the 14,500 dollars per MWh is not available to be paid to ordinary people. It would be quite cheap to set up an emergency power station with car-driven generators. Why do governments never do anything smart?

 

One commentator is saying how renewables have failed their first real test. Without storage, the only effect renewables have had is to put up prices. South Australia got through the day using standby diesel generators, which would have cost millions.

 

 

[spacesailor]

KGW

 

There were a lot less when I was a child, That big war took a few million off this Earth. Pre fifties.

 

Don't want that again !.

 

SO

 

Stop feeding the starving millions. Let nature take it's course.

 

If Europe goes into a catastrophic Freeze and can't feed itself, Don't ring us.

 

Lets see if Anyone disagree's with "The Final Solution".

 

Iv'e heard that before !.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

space, the world population grew during ww2. The war reduced the share of total population held by some countries, but overall the population grew.

 

But just think about how much better the world would be today if the population were held at 2 billion, which was passed in 1927.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Who's volunteering to step off the boat?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Banning coal before we have a viable alternative system will do it.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Don't fret.

 

World population has always played Russian roulette (sorry Willie, no disrespect), with a total disregard for consequences. Sooner or later there will be a natural (or unnatural) rebalancing of population numbers.

 

 

[octave]

Banning coal before we have a viable alternative system will do it.

I don't think we are instantly banning coal. In this country, my understanding is that we have set 2030 as a target. I doubt that this will be fully met and I believe that pledge has plenty of wriggle room.

 

I do believe that targets are important even if not met on schedule.

 

I grew in the era of project Apollo and was, and still am fascinated with it. I have watched just about every doco made. The thing that I find inspiring is that in interviews with NASA people of the time they point out that they were shocked by Kennedy's speech. They actually did not think it could be done. We all know how it turned out.

 

The guidance computers in the command module are 1 cubic foot in size, why? Because when MIT started designing them they did not even know what the computer needed to be equipped to do. The story goes that NASA kept nagging MIT about slow progress. In one conversation NASA asked what the physical size of the computer would be. The head of the team designing wanting to end a difficult phone call just pulled a figure out of his head, 1 cubic foot and 1 cubic foot it became.

 

My point is that where there are deadlines pressing reasons and the will to do something we can probably achieve it.

 

Renewables are cheaper and storage is getting there. Any canny investor would surely be cautious when it comes to investing in a coal-fired plant with a projected life of 60 years when in 10 years it will be old technology.

 

 

[facthunter]

New Coal Power Stations cannot find anyone to invest in them COAL's not economic starting from scratch now, and will get even less so. Exxon is S#1tting itself over anticipated legal; action as their own records show they were aware of global warming by CO2 years ago and deliberately withheld it from shareholders as a risk assessment of their business.. Insurance companies are aware of it. Rockefellers sp? got out of oil years ago. Middle east is seeking outside "Investment" in their previous pots of gold., oil wells. Atmospheric CO2 is measured at many places including one in Tasmania ( Southern Hemisphere) and is well over 400PPM and rising . Vested interests put out lies and have facts suppressed so they can continue to make dollars. Surprise, surprise.. Opponents of Coal are demonized on purpose. To invalidate their claims.The FACTs are there but not that easy to get into the open, because that's the way those in power want it .Keep the matter confused.. Scientists have been constantly vilified also. Scientists are the ones we look to for answers in most things one can see and touch. Medicine Surgery, astro physics Engineering etc (you name it) but we are advised not to believe them on climate matters. Sco Mo calls it "that nonsense". Abbot says Climate Change is "CRAP". They obviously know better than 97% of the scientists.( or that's what they want YOU to believe.) Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

The Apollo project was inspiring, Octave. Competition is certainly a great driver of innovation.

 

One story from WWII has the US army secretly pitting their weapons makers against each other; they'd complain to one firm that their artillery shells couldn't penetrate the latest enemy armour. Meanwhile their armour manufacturers were regularly told their tank armour wouldn't stop the latest armour-piercing shells.

 

Innovation is not confined to the free entprise system. Strong governments can set impossible goals and achieve them, often at enormous human and environmental cost. There are so many inspiring stories of incredible effort such as the Vietnamese fight against the French, Japanese, Americans and Chinese.

 

Our comfortable lifestyle and regular elections means no government is likely to have the balls of Kennedy, much less Stalin or Giap, so we're not likely to see rapid reforms.

 

When (not if) Australia's economy slips into the next recession it'll be a doozy and our people will one again have to show the sort of self-sacrifice and get up and go last seen in wartime. Maybe then they might support visionary projects.

 

 

[willedoo]

Old Koreelah, you're right about strong governments and achieving goals. The MiG-15 for example. After Stalin signed off on starting the development of it, the first prototype flew after twelve months. Another twelve months after that, the first production batch rolled off the line. For the engineers, the alternative of life in a gulag or worse was good incentive to double check those calculations. Enforced productivity so to speak.

 

One thing I found interesting about the Apollo project was that the suits were made by Playtex, the bra manufacturer. Every stitch was done by hand.

 

 

[spacesailor]

" Any canny investor would surely be cautious when it comes to investing in a coal-fired plant with a projected life of 60 years when in 10 years it will be old technology."

 

I just hope that the OLD smokey power-stations last long enough to let the New technology get a head of any short coming's of "Green_Power".

 

As for scientist they DO make mistakes !.

 

Thalidomide

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Litespeed]

No the scientists made no mistakes for thalidamide is was the greedy company that knew it was not suitable for the pregnant women, but decided to market it anyway.

 

The testing proved this but they were ignored , the 50's data showed the company knew. Just like big tobacco and James Hardie they just swept it under the carpet in pursuit of profits.

 

As a drug it still has uses today but not as a nausea aid for pregnant women.