Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[spacesailor]

Another (for the RICH)

 

"Lotus Type 130 all-electric hypercar confirmed

 

Lotus reveals $3 million electric hypercar

 

Type 130 name confirmed, first silhouette"[ATTACH]50028._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

spacesailor

 

[octave]

Another (for the RICH)"Lotus Type 130 all-electric hypercar confirmed

 

Lotus reveals $3 million electric hypercar

 

Type 130 name confirmed, first silhouette"[ATTACH]4035[/ATTACH]

 

spacesailor

Yeah, supercars of any type are for the rich. Luckily as with most things, we buy there is a price range to suit most people. Here is the Nissan leaf I drove around in last time I was in NZ. This vehicle was loaned to us by an employee of my son. It was bought second hand for $14 000.

 

[ATTACH]50029._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[red750]

What was it like to drive, Octave? Did it take much getting used to? Was the limited range restrictive? Did you charge it where you wee staying, and were there any special requirements for recharging?

 

 

[octave]

What was it like to drive, Octave? Did it take much getting used to? Was the limited range restrictive? Did you charge it where you wee staying, and were there any special requirements for recharging?

Range - As an early Leaf not huge but we were driving it around town. The young guy who owns it charged it at his place (for free). Very easy to drive, at driving speed you can forget it is electric but when you stop at the lights the first few times it is a bit disconcerting due to the lack of sound. New Zealand is well ahead on charging stations even out of the cities.

 

We are heading over there again in 2 weeks but since our last trip, my son has bought a BMWI3 so we will be driving that. My son has a Tesla 3 on order so looking forward to driving that but the delivery date is uncertain. The Leaf is pretty nimble with good acceleration compared to similar IC cars.

 

The interesting things is that the leaf owner and my son are massive petrol heads. My son owns racecar that he races in motorsport regularly but for his daily drive the I3 is the logical choice, the I3 is charged at my sons home and I believe cost $3-4$ a week. Petrol is pretty expensive in NZ. He does enjoy the I3 but is looking forward to the Tesla. (yes unlike me he has more money than god) Maintenance is extremely cheap except the tires are unusual and quite spendy.

 

I may try and make a road test type video in the I3 if I get around to it and I will post it here.

 

Whilst I am enthusiastic about EVs, like many here I am not ready to buy one. I don't think the idea of everybody suddenly changing to EV would be practical. It is a bit like any change in-car technology, it was only a few years ago that I got a car that had airbags. By the time I am ready for a new car I suspect that second hand EVs will be much cheaper.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I am involved in tech and I just cant get excited about EV.....well not for my usage anyway. I drive way too many long km stretches for them to be practical. Fine if your a city dweller whose life revolves in about a 30km radius. Finding a EV point to charge up at where I live is a joke...nothing out here at all let alone on the way out to where I work. The expense has to come down a lot more for a car and anything that has some size to it is big dollars let alone anything that can tow a trailer 300km in one hit carrying about 700 kg. EV has a long way to go yet as far as I am concerned. But like everything in this renewables push it is all trying to be done in a extremely short time and it just isnt practical. As far as subsidies from the govt let it happen under its own developments. I saw Abbot say something a week ago that surprised me but what he said was true..did the govt subsidize the changeover from horses to automobiles..it evo;ved naturally with companies having a idea and a product and funded it themselves. I read a very interesting article the other day about renewables from a guy who has been a environmentalist most of his life. Read the whole article not just a bit of it..he makes some compelling arguements and also stated some facts that I was not aware of...probably because I am not out there doing what he does.

 

https://quillette.com/2019/02/27/why-renewables-cant-save-the-planet/?fbclid=IwAR0xShYoG1-LrhL-_08e3QTYHZoWm6MHcEPFzSKH1Pxl73qxjq3sspb_hlU

 

 

[red750]

Most of my 'journeys' are under 12km round trip, with one trip a month a total of 60km. The nearest recharge point is 3 km away, and I could walk across the road to the shopping centre to shop while the car recharges, (free at present), so something like the Leaf would suit my purposes. I usually have 2 POB and a couple of bags of groceries.

 

As I said in a previous post, I am in no position to get a car of any kind, even something like a 1998 Holden Astra, but if I were, the map below shows why something like the Leaf would meet my needs. The circle is a 5km radius around my place.

 

[ATTACH]50030._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[octave]

I am involved in tech and I just cant get excited about EV.....well not for my usage anyway.

No problem with that, it is a matter of what suits you, at some point in the future perhaps it will suit you. Not only am I saying it makes sense for many but not all it would be undoable to change the whole fleet in a short time.

 

I drive way too many long km stretches for them to be practical. Fine if your a city dweller whose life revolves in about a 30km radius.

I think that is a little tough. I can fully understand that in your circumstances it may be too difficult but to say "it is OK if you stay in the city and only go 30k" is not quite accurate

 

You can now drive an electric car right around Australia without range anxiety

 

EV has a long way to go yet as far as I am concerned.

Absolutely fine, I won't be getting one until my present car is done. l did not get an early mobile phone but waited until they were cheaper.

 

Subsidies are always tricky because some subsidies are not so easy to see. The car manufacturers in this country were heavily subsidised which no doubt fed into the end price for the buyer. Governments built highways. Early aviation was subsidised. There is this idea that EVs must fully compete with IC cars from day 1. If we did this with many technologies they would never get off the ground. Vehicles that would suit you are available but not at a price that would be economically viable for you.

 

I will go out on a limb and say that EVs are technically superior to IC cars in every sense but the range and filling time. In terms of filling the time it is more about a different model of refuelling. My car has been parked all night, if it were electric it would be full now however I am about to go out and I will have to stop at the servo to fill up.

 

The range continues to improve as battery technology inevitably improves. The price of batteries continues to fall.

 

I am not particularly interested in selling the idea to anyone because I think the change is inevitable given the efficiency of an electric motor compared to IC engines:

 

"Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.” An electric motor typically is between 85% and 90% efficient."

 

How we power those electric motors is an interesting question, whether battery or hydrogen fuel cell or perhaps both will be used or something else.

 

EVs are not going away and will continue to increase its market share.

 

I am familiar with the Michael Schellenberger article. I do have a link for a critique of some of his points but I am just heading out and I don't want to post it before I have reread both articles. I will agree though that the answer is not to change all IC vehicles for EVs.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Kyle,

 

I read that link you posted.

 

Then I googled the author.

 

I think he is a bit biased.

 

Try this link.

 

Exposing the misinformation of Michael Shellenberger and 'Environmental Progress' | Wise International

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I do believe that EV will be the way of the future it just is no where near it needs to be in my opinion to be even useful to 50% of the population in the formats we have now. That format will not change that much in the next 10 years until a new style of power is developed/invented. Batteries are really very old school and have been around a long time. Yes they have come a long way since first developed but for long term use and capacity for a EV there needs be be a whole new development for storage or fuel cell to make it viable for the majority of the population

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I was surprised at someone who was a environmentalist would come up with that article. Yes it is a bit biased towards about killing the large birds with wind generators and he is right about cats that just like to kill things but dont forget whether you have a EV or a IC vehicle you are still going to run over the same amount of animals. So yes he has a bias when it comes to that but I thought his opinions and the facts he posted about the power generation was very good and had weight

 

 

[kgwilson]

66% of our population reside in the metropolitan areas of our 8 capital cities and 89% live in urban areas of only a handful of cities so EVs will suit a very high percentage of the population. China has now set a new standard for fast charging stations at 900 kW. Currently here we are just starting to talk about level 3 (240 kW DC) and the fastest now is a Tesla dual charge at 22kW so development is rapid. At 900 kW a 5 minute charge will add about 500km to your cars range.

 

The technology exists now but is new and not yet installed anywhere but in 2 years time I would suggest this will be become common. New EVs will have the DC converter on board.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

See this is still the chicken and egg argument..you currently need coal fired power to power the charging stations so if the discussion is ONLY on the EV as a tool then thats fine but the bigger picture and all the hyperbole about EV is the "green" side of them. We dont have hydro here so we cant use "natural" power when the sun goes down as there is no bulk storage for renewables. I see the lot of this all tied together but in different ratios of course

 

 

[octave]

Given the fact that subsidies for EVs in the US are quickly phasing out, it would seem that Ford's $500 million investment and partnership with Rivian must indicate they see a future in EVs.

 

In Australia, at this point, there are no subsidies that I am aware of, in fact, cars over $61 884 attract a luxury car tax

 

See this is still the chicken and egg argument..you currently need coal fired power to power the charging stations so if the discussion is ONLY on the EV as a tool then thats fine but the bigger picture and all the hyperbole about EV is the "green" side of them. We don't have hydro here so we cant use "natural" power when the sun goes down as there is no bulk storage for renewables. I see the lot of this all tied together but in different ratios of course

Yes, an EV is only as clean as the electricity generation method. If you live in Tasmania then it is very clean. This varies from state to state. The point is though that an EV gets cleaner as the grid gets cleaner. An IC car starts its life as clean as it can be and degrades throughout its life.

 

Most states have a growing renewables sector, therefore, the situation is changing. What about states that are heavily coal dependent, does that make an EV a bad choice? Here is a pretty thorough analysis

 

 

I have read that Australia has 22 days supply of fuel. Any disruption to the delivery of crude oil would be a big problem. We import loads of crude oil yet our power stations are mostly powered by fuel produced locally, whether it be hydro, solar, wind, or coal. It seems to me that green issues aside there are other benefits.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

As I said EV is the way of the future for sure..we all want a cleaner planet but it will take time and much money to get it there but all the do gooders want it done yesterday and it just cant happen. Labour are talking about subsidies for the EV sector to get their 50% in a ridiculous time frame. Infrastructure is no where near what it would need to be and neither is the storage tech

 

 

[red750]

From my point of view, the important thing is economy. I currently drive a 19 year old 4.1 litre Falcon. It guzzles fuel like there is no tomorrow when driving within the circle in the map above. Not so bad on an open road. Jump on the freeway and drive at 100 km/h and the computer shows the Distance to Empty (DTE) climbing the further you drive. Back in the circle, and the calculated DTE ticks down like the timer on a microwave.

 

The map below shows the recharge points around my place (red star). The brown ones are hi-power centres. To see the points in your area, click here.

 

[ATTACH]50031._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[Litespeed]

There is nothing about the labour plan that is unreasonable for 2030.

 

It is for 50% of new sales in 2030. By this time you will be hard pressed finding a new car for sale that is not EV or hybrid EV. The market is rapidly heading that way, most euro makers have plans for this by 2023.

 

There is plenty of time to put in the charge points. No one said petrol stations can't also do charging. They update servos every 10 years or less anyway.

 

It is all just a big scare campaign from the LNP.

 

 

[octave]

Infrastructure is no where near what it would need to be and neither is the storage tech

I agree that the infrastructure in this country is way behind many other countries but that is why it is important to prepare for the future. Just about all car manufacturers have announced timetables to move towards EV, hybrid or fuel cell technology, the question is will we in this country be a sort of third world car country where we are using technologies that other countries are moving away from.

 

The Labor policy is for 50% of NEW vehicles to be EV by 2030 that is in 11 years time, seems like quite a long time frame time. I believe Norway has reached 50% recently. Countries like China are aggressively pursuing EV s not because they are hippy greenies but because they have to to keep their larger cities livable. In fact, China produces 43% (in 2016) of EVs.

 

Infrastructure is no where near what it would need to be and neither is the storage tech

What sort of range do you suggest EVs need before they are competitive with IC cars?

 

What level of infrastructure is required before you would see it as viable?

 

There is always a problem with rolling out infrastructure for the future. Perhaps the answer is to instead of subsidies to EV buyers perhaps subsidies go towards improving the infrastructure. We can end up with a situation where we say that there are not enough EVs to justify infrastructure improvements and there is not enough infrastructure to allow people to conveniently charge their EVs.

 

In 2017 there were 476 dedicated EV charging stations and more coming online all the time. Many EV drivers charge at home overnight, which is, of course, slower but fine for the daily commute to work.

 

I think what it comes down to is that you believe that an EV is not right for you and the last thing I would do is to try and convince you that it was the right thing for you. I looked at buying an aircraft some years ago but decided it was economically irrational for ME. If the Labor party's incentives are successful then you will still be able to purchase one of the 50% of cars that will still be IC, I don't really see the problem other than the use of subsidies. Personally, I am happy to subsidise the modernisation of our transport systems, certainly more happy subsidising EVs than other things that attract subsidies.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

You missed my point...with what power generation are you going to charge all of those EV with.....possibly during the day lots of renewables but what about when the sun goes down and the wind certainly up here doesnt blow at night

 

None around my way and I am half way between the sunshine coast and Brisbane... There is one and its not even anywhere near the main centre of town The others are almost at least 30 to 40 km away so in my little piece of the world..which by the way is a outer north suburb in real terms have 1 hahahahha They better get moving installing a lot more to that dirty filthy coal fired grid

 

[ATTACH]50032._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]50033._xfImport[/ATTACH]

 

[octave]

here is plenty of time to put in the charge points. No one said petrol stations can't also do charging.

Yes in Britain Shell is installing EV chargers in their servos

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nst2RGtgzfk:367

 

Also what it is easy to overlook are the different patterns of refuelling and the new business opportunities. Hotels and Motels in Europe (and some here) have them. Charge your car while you have a meal in our restaurant. Shop in our shopping mall and charge your car while you shop.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Octave "I agree that the infrastructure in this country is way behind many other countries but that is why it is important to prepare for the future."

 

Mate it is stupidly behind because all the govt of the past 20 years literally vow not to spend money on infrastructure its taken 5 years to put an extra lane on the gateway motorway..11KM of road for christs sake and only 1 lane each side...who makes these stupid decisions..The Gateway is highway #1 the Bruce Hwy if you have ever been on the gateway in the mornings and afternoons you know what its like

 

 

[octave]

You missed my point...with what power generation are you going to charge all of those EV with.....possibly during the day lots of renewables but what about when the sun goes down and the wind certainly up here doesnt blow at night

None around my way and I am half way between the sunshine coast and Brisbane... There is one and its not even anywhere near the main centre of town The others are almost at least 30 to 40 km away so in my little piece of the world..which by the way is a outer north suburb in real terms have 1 hahahahha They better get moving installing a lot more to that dirty filthy coal fired grid

 

I think we have established that an EV is not right for you and no one is trying to convince you otherwise. I suspect that when the network improves in your area you still will not be interested. I have not a problem with that.

 

They better get moving installing a lot more to that dirty filthy coal fired grid

Or more likely a mix of generation sources. The grid is getting cleaner, even if we do build new coal-fired plants they will cleaner than the current generation methods. It takes electricity to refine petrol as well.

 

Let's say theoretically we reach 50% EV and we rely on fossil fuels (still greener than IC engine) at some stage we will probably use fusion or some other method yet to be discovered. The EV is the most versatile vehicle when it comes to fuel. An EV can be powered by coal, gas, biofuel, geothermal, wind, solar, diesel. An IC car can only run on petrol (or diesel) perhaps ethanol or lp gas and you can refuel your car at home.

 

What are your thoughts on hydrogen fuel cell vehicles?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Fuel cells are a whole different matter and I think they should have been developed a lot faster and implemented long ago. They have been around for a while now..of course you can believe the conspiracy dudes that the big oil companies keep buying out the IP for it. They make far more sense for storage and energy use

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

You also cant tell this later generation that the new clean coal power station can actually be way cleaner than what we have now and would be a good stop gap until something better comes along but no...we are all evil masters and should die a dirty death because we are older than 45

 

 

[octave]

Fuel cells are a whole different matter and I think they should have been developed a lot faster and implemented long ago. They have been around for a while now..of course you can believe the conspiracy dudes that the big oil companies keep buying out the IP for it. They make far more sense for storage and energy use

There are a few hydrogen fuel cars like the Hyundai Nexo

 

I found these clips from Real Engineering comparing Hydrogen with battery, it is quite rigorous.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY:783

 

 

[red750]

BMW to buy cobalt for EV batteries from Australia and Morocco