Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[spacesailor]

Solar boat was trialed in Sydney, no joy, had to use diesel motor most days.

 

Two banks of panels, one bank tilted up to join the other bank so both banks had full sun.

 

Still didn,t work as well as promised.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

 Much of the cost is the battery It's a great looking and handling car. Crappy ones aren't a lot cheaper considering the difference. You can't really compare a second hand Ute with a new state of the art luxury car. In 15 Years It would be hard to predict what your Ute's worth. I wouldn't count on todays situation being the situation for that amount of time.  DIESELS might just become very unwanted. I drive 2 but I'm realistic. Motor vehicles have an unknown value but they are depreciating at an alarming rate currently. Count on them being worthless and you won't get a rude shock. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

The Sydney solar boat was a very old tech approach and not well designed.

 

Lots of great examples doing well in Europe and a lot less sun than us.

 

You can't expect to throw any design at the solar problem . it must be efficient.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Here is a example of the latest in Solar boats and does not have sails at all.

 

It is built to travel the world completely energy from the sun in wind,sun rays and even hydrogen to store excess power plus batteries. 

 

This is a old racing cat that is brilliantly re purposed. Nothing is more expensive than a old racing cat like this new but dirt cheap when no longer competitive.

 

Sure its on the Wow and expensive end but the tech works and when combined with a set of sails and a hybrid drive diesel- that would rarely if ever be needed, range for days even in the rain.

 

 

 

 

[Litespeed]

Here is a latest design from a big Euro firm for a cruising catamaran and has all the fruit, wide hulls, heavy and the battery pack could be a lot bigger.

 

Needs a few extra Teslas chopped up.

 

It also would benefit greatly from wind turbines for much better range.

 

 

 

 

[onetrack]

GM has started a "teaser" marketing campaign for their new EV pickup - sold under the GMC brand, and called ... wait for it ... the Hummer. It will be late Sept 2021 at the earliest, before you can buy one.

 

Now, what the thinking was, behind naming a new, radical design, clean and green electric machine, after a former V8 muscle 4x4 rig known to send Greenies into paroxysms of fury, is not something I can figure out.

 

But one things for sure, GM are obviously scared of what Tesla is steadily achieving (despite the companys hiccups), and both they and Ford are intent on not missing the EV boat.

 

The bottom line is, though, no-one has mentioned the total cessation of the production of IC pickups and other heavy duty vehicles.

 

They will almost certainly still be producing both EV Hummers and diesel pickups simultaneously for quite a period of time yet, with the aim, no doubt, of seeing how the sales compare.

 

At this point, buyer wariness is still there in large quantities, with most saying they'll hold off on buying an EV pickup, until there's a major rollout of charging stations, and an increase in battery technology to higher power densities.

 

https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev

 

 

[pmccarthy]

What everyone is missing is that there is not enough copper in the world to build these vehicles and the grid control network to recharge them. Note enough mines, not enough copper deposits discovered. It is a dream that has not been thought through.

 

 

[octave]

What everyone is missing is that there is not enough copper in the world to build these vehicles and the grid control network to recharge them. Note enough mines, not enough copper deposits discovered. It is a dream that has not been thought through.

 

Does this not also apply to conventional cars also?  If you extrapolate the materials in almost any modern device into the future you can run into problems. By the way, what does it matter? If you are correct about mining companies not being able to supply enough copper then prices of of copper will skyrocket and thus  the price of EVs (and all other products containing copper)will rise and these products will fail to sell, problem solved.

 

"While conventional cars have 18-49 pounds of copper, hybrid electric vehicles (HEV) contain approximately 85 pounds, plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV) use 132 pounds, battery electric vehicles (BEVs) contain"

 

https://www.copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/A6191-ElectricVehicles-Factsheet.pdf

 

And this     https://sustainablecopper.org/meeting-future-copper-demand/

 

"Demand for copper is growing. It is expected to jump by as much as 50 percent over the next 20 years alone, and this growth is part of a wider trend. As the World Bank’s 2017 report, “The Growing Role of Minerals and Metals for a Low Carbon Future,” points out, we could see a ten-fold rise in demand for metals, including copper, by 2050 as the world moves toward a low carbon energy future.

 

Several long-term trends are presently driving growth in copper demand and are expected to continue to do so in the coming decades. These trends include increased consumer use of electronics, wider uptake of electric vehicles (EVs), increased use of renewable energy sources and energy efficiency—and all require significant amounts of copper to function.

 

Is there enough copper to meet this growing demand? Currently global copper reserves are estimated at 830 million tonnes (US Geological Survey [uSGS], 2019), and annual copper demand is 28 million tonnes. Furthermore, according to USGS data, since 1950 there has always been, on average, 40 years of copper reserves available and over 200 years of resources, which include reserves, discovered and potentially profitable deposits and undiscovered deposits predicted based on preliminary geological surveys. These copper resources total 5,000 million tonnes (USGS, 2014 & 2017). In addition to the known reserves, it is worth noting that 35 percent of demand is met with recycled copper, significantly reducing the need for mined copper.

 

So, the data is clear. There is enough copper to meet current, and future, demand—even taking into consideration the expected growth in demand for copper in the coming years. While this shows copper will be there to enable more renewables and EVs, using copper to meet this demand needs to be done smartly and efficiently. To make sure this is the case, investment by industry will be required, as will political certainty and stability."

 

As far as whether the grid can support EV charging, many countries are way ahead of us in terms of EV adoption and they seem to be managing OK.   The grid is developing to become smart and instead of being a one way system is become a system where energy travels both ways. Vehicle to grid is being developed.

 

But what does the British head of the national grid think about growing EV demand?  Find out at around the 9 minute mark.

 

Quote

 

 

 

Probably not worth arguing about who is right and wrong when we can just see what happens as the years roll by.   New ideas are always challenging, I imagine predictions were made when the model t rolled off the assembly line.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

There is a serious difference between copper “ reserves” as published by governments and actual copper Ore Reserves  as defined as Proven and Probable under international reporting codes ( like the JORC Code here in Australia). You might describe the government figures as aspirational, but they would not support investment. 

 

Much of the copper in those official figures is extremely low grade. It isn’t economic at present. Yes, it might be in future but will require mining of vast tonnages of rock to produce each handful of copper. Creating waste dumps, potentially unstable tailings dams, and emissions.

 

there is no free lunch.

 

 

[octave]

there is no free lunch.

 

 

 

Indeed there isn't  The notion that we cannot have EVs due to limited copper supplies also applies to ICE vehicles as well just on a longer time scale. Copper is used in many areas of modern society.   I would assume that the cost of copper fluctuates with supply and demand therefore whether or not EVs flourish or die will depend on the copper market.   The supply of copper is not just an EV thing.     It will be many years before EVs are a substantial proportion of the fleet and perhaps by then we will not each own our own or more than one vehicle.  Any modern vehicle is limited by the availability of is construction materials and its fuel.  

 

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Uses of copper: This graph shows how copper was used in the United States during 2017 by industry sector. As an example: copper used in building construction could have been used for wiring, plumbing, weatherproofing and many other individual types of use. Data for this chart is from the United States Geological Survey Mineral Commodity Summary for 2018.

 

[pmccarthy]

Agreed, it is all a trade off of demand. And in favour of EVs is the overall reduction in numbers due to Uber style travel, whether manned or autonomous, so fewer vehicles will be needed. But that would also be true for ICE if we kept them.

 

 

[octave]

But that would also be true for ICE if we kept them.

 

 

 

True but I EVs are way ahead with automation and I would suggest easier to automate. Also less maintenance costs and overall cheaper to run and certainly fun to drive.   Anyway I guess the market will choose.

 

 

[spacesailor]

The UK has stated ALL IC cars will be off their roads by 2050.

 

No UK MINERS left their now after thatcher sacked them all, so no digging copper or anything else their.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Bruce]

I agree onetrack. Right now I am modifying a farm buggy to electric and the electric setup is way simpler and quite cheap. About $1000 for the job. Electric cars should be cheaper than IC cars.

 

As far as electric bikes go, they used to sell for $3000 but now they are down as low as $500, which is still quite a lot.

 

 

[onetrack]

There's quite a serious amount of copper wasted today which goes to landfill - mostly electronic and household items. Improved recycling methods have to be one of the important things we try to attain in the future.

 

Aluminium can be used in place of copper if the worst comes to the worst. Aluminium is the 3rd most conductive metal after copper at 2nd.

 

Lincoln Electric produced a lot of transformer welders with aluminium windings two or three decades ago, when copper prices skyrocketed. 

 

And the bottom line is, when the demand and pricing is there, miners will soon produce the amounts of copper required. Chile has the worlds largest reserves of copper, and their level of copper mining is still relatively low.

 

 

[facthunter]

Copper can be almost completely recycled and it's reasonably non corrosive. Maybe also in sea salt, like a lot of other minerals which might be a by product of desal. We are more likely to run out of fresh water than much else and what is really being done there? Vested interests are the dead hand on progress. Their interests are relatively short term profit and little concern for the DAMAGE. The damage is the thing the people own, long term . Nev

 

 

[Marty_d]

 

Now, what the thinking was, behind naming a new, radical design, clean and green electric machine, after a former V8 muscle 4x4 rig known to send Greenies into paroxysms of fury

 

I can't speak for any other greenies, but the sight of a Hummer doesn't send me into paroxysms of fury - it sends me into paroxysms of laughter, especially when watching the driver (typically short, male and balding) try to navigate normal-sized streets and parking spaces.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

What everyone is missing is that there is not enough copper in the world to build these vehicles and the grid control network to recharge them. Note enough mines, not enough copper deposits discovered. It is a dream that has not been thought through.

 

PM decades ago we were told the same thing about electric cars: that there wasn't enough lead in the world to make all the necessary batteries. As with so many predictions, it didn't anticipate technological change, such as the development of other types of batteries.

 

...in favour of EVs is the overall reduction in numbers due to Uber style travel, whether manned or autonomous, so fewer vehicles will be needed. 

 

Probably on the money, PM. One prediction is that rapid adoption of dial-up electric vehicles will cause car numbers to plummet during this decade.

 

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[Bruce]

Copper was used for internal water pipes in houses. These days, plastic is used and it is much cheaper and easier to install.

 

Aluminium, wrapped on a steel core, has been used for overhead power lines for years.

 

 

[onetrack]

(typically short, male and balding)

 

 

 

 

As a typical short balding male, I deeply resent that cruel and cutting remark ...... you're not on my Xmas card list, now ...... 

 

 

[red750]

Passed a PTV (Public Transport Victoria) bus on Hoddle Street today proudly proclaiming on a large green panel that it was an electric bus.

 

 

[Marty_d]

 

 

 

 

 

As a typical short balding male, I deeply resent that cruel and cutting remark ...... you're not on my Xmas card list, now ...... 

 

 

 

Bugger, there's always some demographic I end up insulting!

 

Very sorry Onetrack.  Just hope you're not a Hummer driver too.

 

 

[facthunter]

 Geez, a revelation! From his posts I imagined One track as tall, tanned with bulging muscles and tatts everywhere. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

Shush 

 

Thats why we can show ourselves as WE would like to be.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Oi! I am short, male (alledgedly) and balding... and I would never drive a hummer..

 

I drive this:

 

 

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