Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[octave]

I always rented a plane rather than owning it and whilst I acknowledge that ownership seems (to me) in some ways seem more appealing it does come at a cost.   I am just speaking from my own point of view and am not criticizing what others choose to do.   There was a time when I aspired to own a plane and I could have afforded it but it would have come at the cost of other things I wanted to do and my general standard of living. 

 

When it comes to vehicle ownership I do own a car mainly because of the "privacy and comfort aspect"  other than that I have no particular attraction to owning a car for the sake of ownership.  What a car gives me is mobility and that is about all, if this service could be provided cheaper at the same level of comfort and privacy I would happily sell my car and spend its yearly running costs on wine and whiskey etc.

 

I think the point is that there is a huge downside to every adult on the planet owning a car however it is powered.    EVs and renewables will certainly help but it wise to consider if propelling one person around in 1000+kg of metal is the best we can do.    I am definitely not anti car ownership I just think  we should be using technology to come up with more alternatives.   I know fully self driving  cars are probably some time away but if I could summon a vehicle when I want it it and if that vehicle was clean and comfortable I would be up for it.   Having retired (mostly) at the end of last year and with the pandemic I do look at my car and it does seem like a wasted asset.  We have recently bought ebikes and tend to do local trips by bike, not for ideological reasons, we just enjoy it. 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

My plan to move back to Australia is inching closer. I have done a lot of homework and due to my profession, it will be one fo the cities on the Eastern seaboard.. most likely Melbourne (despite much more work for what I do in Sydney.

 

I have meticulously planned everything - it is in a big spreadsheet. The stark thing missing is a car. The areas we are looking at moving to are close enough to the city to make riding to work doable and when tired, the public transport travel time bearable (just). Last tie in Aus, our cars remained idle most of the weekend. Allowing for one night per week Uber/Taxi (return) to meet up with friends, etc. and hirign a car when we need it (can get some cracking deals online these days), makes it very competitive.  Don't plan on living more than 20kms from Moorrabbin/Bankstown/Archerfield, so a good fold up bike will do the trick for flying days and give me some transport wherever I go.

 

We normally do our shopping daily on the way home from work, so rarely carry large amounts of stuff.

 

Rent-a-bomb for the tip run every so often; rent a decent car for the weekend away or holiday.

 

 

[Marty_d]

They're a big drain on the purse and sit around idle, quietly depreciating, much of the time.  If you can get along without one (or 2), you're lucky.

 

I saw someone at work advertise their 2nd hand series 7 BMW a few years back.  He'd had it for 10 years, paid $220,000 for it new, and was advertising it for $20,000.  Back then that was more than half a house price that he'd lost in depreciation for one car.

[onetrack]

The European "brand name" vehicles are the worst purchase you could make - along with a number of American-brand vehicles.

But a lot of people are happy to continually fork out huge amounts of money, simply to present their desired image, and the image that driving a European brand name is supposed to deliver.

 

But that image is carefully nurtured with constant subtle advertising, and comes at inflated prices - both in purchase price, and in maintenance and repair costs. This is simply because the Germans have carefully and constantly engineered the mindset that anything German-built is superior, and must cost more.

 

The BMW 7 series is typical of the massive running costs of these German brands. They are exceptionally complex in their construction, and they are designed so that special tools, exclusive to the brand are regularly needed to carry even basic tasks, such as brake pad replacement.

 

There are numerous stories of BMW 7 series owners selling their cars just before the 100,000 km odometer reading - because the 100,000 km service is a major service that requires dismantling of many inaccessible components - and that 100,000km service cost can run to $10,000 or more.

 

The "luxury" brands have poor resale values because they are over-priced initially, and because their maintenance and repair costs are horrendous. The worst part is that many of the parts that go into German cars are no longer made in Germany anyway - and in some cases, even the vehicles are not built in Germany.

Add in reliability that is no better than the average vehicle, and the German brands are poor value for the long term.

Of course, many luxury brand vehicle owners care little about the cost of their vehicles, because they are earning huge sums, and the vehicles are usually a tax deductible item, anyway.

[spacesailor]

AND

There,s the 'kicker ' 

TAX

A new car for a Non business is much dearer than a ABN holder,

THEN

Said owner can have depreciation plus a lot of their running cost, tax deductable.

A friend put a deposit on a Brisbane 'house  ' , bought a new ute, lawnmower and expensive Vacume cleaner 

. Every year there after He & mates, drove from Sydney  to Brizzie for two weeks ' maintance ' of said property .

Great life or Rourt !.

Son in law was mate,  did he pay off that house ?? Never.

spacesailor

[facthunter]

The "average" person cannot really afford a car. A business can write it all off. If I didn't service my cars myself i couldn't afford them. I keep them way beyond what the average person does. Sharing a plane a car or a wife you don't know what condition it's in. Nev

[octave]

Any rental car I have ever used has been in considerably better condition than my car.   Many years ago when we lived on a large bush property, we woke up in the early hours to see a torchlight moving around outside the house.   We called the local police and by the time he arrived the person had gone.   I walked around the house with the policeman and he shone his torch through my car window.  "Looks like they ransacked your car"   embarrassingly I had to admit that it always looked like that. (true story)

 

I calculated the other day that over the last year my car cost me $3000 (excluding its purchase price). Last year was of course an unusual year with lockdowns etc.  and I also retired.    Whilst I don't see myself not owning a car in the near term I think it is wise to do the sums and ask how much car hire I would get for $3000?   

[Yenn]

It seems that several f you consider they could do without a car, but for those of us who live less than 30km from a big city and have no train, tram or bus connection it is an essential tool.

Avoid the yuppy cars and buy something like a Toyota that will run forever on minimal maintenance.

I haven't worked out what it costs to run my car, but I know that having to call a taxi wold be very expensive and also inconvenient.

All I want is for electric cars to get to a realistic price and batteries to be reliable.

[octave]

53 minutes ago, Yenn said:

It seems that several f you consider they could do without a car, but for those of us who live less than 30km from a big city and have no train, tram or bus connection it is an essential tool.

 

I lived for 21 years outside of a country town and I would say a car is essential.    It is about individual circumstances.  There are circumstances in which an EV or not owning a car makes sense and circumstances in which it does not make sense.  For the foreseeable future we have the choice of these options.

[facthunter]

It would be nice to have some direction so one could plan these things. the Victorian Gov't are subsidizing the electric cars far more costly than the mileage User  tax /contribution. that got so much criticism . Not from me I might add.. I can't see why the ICE/ battery combo is almost the same cost though. Nev

[onetrack]

I live 5kms from the CBD and the Mrs and I share a 2012 Camry Atara that we bought from a deceased estate for $19,000 in Nov 2014, with 13,000 kms on the clock. The car has done 72,000 kms now.

It was a very good buy, as the car was immaculate (the old WW2 tail gunner bought it new for $35,000 when he was 89!). The Redbook private sale price was reported as $23,000 at the time.

 

We spend a large part of our driving, in and around the city and suburbs - but we have done some major country trips, one of which involved 1000kms over 10 days (looking at wildflowers in Spring).

Another trip involved 800 kms (up and back) over 3 days. The Camry is really good on fuel, despite it being 2.5L and 135kW, we can get around 7L/100km on country trips.

 

For 90% of our driving - that is, city driving - an EV would be just fine. However, major country trips like we have done, would seem to be impossible with an EV, particularly as we were travelling at 110kmh nearly all the way. I don't believe the range claimed by EV's is possible, travelling at highway speeds.

 

The Camry is still worth around $14,000 because of its low kms and good condition. That means we've lost just $5000 in depreciation in 6 1/2 years. We had no finance costs, we paid cash for it.

If we keep the Camry for another 4 or 5 years, the annual depreciation won't be much different.

 

We previously had a 2002 Camry that we paid $17,500 for at auction in 2004 (with 20,000 kms on it) - and we put a total of 180,000 kms in that Camry over 12 years, and sold it for $4000 - making our annual depreciation cost, $1125 a year. Repairs on that Camry only amounted to a few hundred dollars over that 12 years - brake pads, a thermostat, a set of fanbelts, an alternator, a headlining repair, and a couple of plastic trim items.

 

Of course, tyres, licence, and insurance were all on top of that - but you have those costs with electric cars, anyway. I understand that EV's are very good on brake life, thanks to regenerative braking.

I've spent nothing on repairs on the current Camry, in 6 1/2 years. Just oil and filters and a couple of tyres. They are exceptionally reliable cars, and hold their value extremely well.

 

I'd be concerned with an EV as to how their resale value would hold up, and what their annual depreciation cost would be. I would expect their depreciation would be a lot higher than our Camrys.

My "work" vehicle is a 2013 Hilux SR 2WD diesel traytop, and it runs back and forth to the country (around 280kms return) at least once a week, generally hauling a full load - 800-1000kgs.

 

In between, I run around the city and suburbs, knocking up about 250kms a week, on that type of work. My Hilux cost me just over $15,000 in 2017 with 27,000 kms on the clock.

It had been a fleet vehicle and the company traded in half a dozen on new Hiluxes, and I got a great "end of month, slow sales month", no-trade deal. It's still worth $15,000, according to all the figures.

 

I'd be hard-pressed to make a case for moving out of the Camry or the Hilux into EV's, as the Toyotas cost so little to run - apart from fuel, their maintenance costs are extremely low - mostly because I do my own maintenance and repair (I've got my own workshop) - but also because they rarely need any repair.

 

The cost of fuel would have to go sky high to warrant me looking seriously at an EV - even just for the Mrs' car. We have always bought low-km used cars (for the last 30 years), and I think it will be a long time before there's a reasonable choice of low-km used EV's.

I am considering a RAV4 Hybrid for a replacement for the Camry, as I believe they're a good fit for the near future, and perhaps when the RAV4 is ready to trade, the EV's will be in a much more competitive position.

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by onetrack
.. corrections

[octave]

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

For 90% of our driving - that is, city driving - an EV would be just fine. However, major country trips like we have done, would seem to be impossible with an EV, particularly as we were travelling at 110kmh nearly all the way. I don't believe the range claimed by EV's is possible, travelling at highway speeds.

 I do have experience of driving my sons Tesla around NZ and it is fine.   It is probably not necessarily easy to Drive all the way around Australia in an EV but it is definitely possible and there are some websites where people detail their trips. Not saying that this is the way that everyone wants to make their trip.   Driving around NZ  it is a matter of stopping for lunch and a charge.  

 

List of Successful Electric Vehicle Trips Around Australia

 

An EV is not yet the choice for everyone YET but given reducing prices and improving technology the time is getting nearer.

[spacesailor]

With all the Extortion, & forceable push Against our Lawfull transport of choice !.

There will be a lot of resentment against all forms of EV,s.

Including that obstrosancy, of Tram rails throughout our cities. 

Take London !.

No IC vehicle's allowed unless you have a permit, Rules me & mine from Ever visiting.

Is Sydney Going to pull that same stunt, along with Parramatta.

No more driving down to the ' Smoke ' for a wild night, or a Show.

THEM & US

spacesailor

[octave]

54 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

No IC vehicle's allowed unless you have a permit, Rules me & mine from Ever visiting.

Most car manufacturers have committed to end IC vehicle production by the  mid 2030s.    I don't think anyone here need worry that they won't be able to choose and IC vehicle for the foreseeable future.  What I sus[ect will actually happen though is that EV technology will mean that in the near future EVs will be the more economical choice and some people will make the choice to spend more money to run a less economical IC vehicle.  

[spacesailor]

To me it,s the same as : No cash on public transport, then they introduced the ' opal card ' .

To get that card,  a pensioner & partner, Have (  compulsory,  be in person) to apply, ln the Sydney city.

To get to the city, No concession allowed, full price rail tickets were purched.

Then you have to put a working $ ?. $10 please, on each card.

Now we've spent $40 to get two concession cards !.

Great for the well heeled.

If you don,t need an EV,  they Will make you NEED one.

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

@OT - I would guess you are in the minority in terms of the costs of cars, espcially given your ability to maintain them yourself. In addition, you seem to have the 7th sense of being able to sniff out quality cars at auction versus the rubbish that often gets pedalled. For the average Joe (or, in my case with respect to cars, below average), the costs would be somewhat higher in both runnig and depreciation. Anyone with an IC car in the UK will see a massive drop in value (or massive increase in depreciation) after about 2027, I would say.

 

My point is that for the average person, the costs of motoring are far higher. Depreciation of EVs is an interesting topic though. Over here, they seem to depreciate more than ICs, but I think that is down to the scarcity of facts about how they perform over the long run, what to look for, what can go wrong, and what would be the cost of fixing. ICs are a known quantity. Also, with EVs, the tech is changing rapidly. The IC advances have slowed since the 90's/early 2000's, so there isn't so much obsolence as there is in EVs at the moment. Once the tech matures enough, depreciation should be lower.

 

The other thing is that deciding to use an EV is not all about cost.. Price is also a pshychological thing and it is a furphy that even a fully competitive market will drive costs to the consumer to the most efficient (i.e. lowest for the quality/utility). Behavioural economics debunks this and there are many studies in even commoditised markets where pricing is a psychological function more than the cost of inputs (of course, the price has to cover the input cost + profit for a business to survive).  For me, getting an EV won't be about the opportunity cost of running an ICE car.. it will be about what it offers me and how I value it, including the no emmissions (at point of use, anyway).

 

@Spacey - I am not sure of this permit you are referring to. There are two charges for cars driving into London - a congestion charge, which operates from 6am to 6pm (from memory - may be a bit later).  London is also classed as an ultra-low emmission zone, which means that vehicles that exceed emmissons and drive into the London area are charged something like £12. It is a tax, but it is to discourage polluting London. IC cars that meet the emmissions requirements (contained in the standards here: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/ways-to-meet-the-standard). It is safe to say that cars manufacturerd after 2016 will be generally exempt from the charge.

[spacesailor]

According to my Chauffeur 'Bro-in-law '.  only Hybrid cars allowed, when asked, as passing a turnoff to London, ( having to go around the city ).

"  Anyone with an IC car in the UK will see a massive drop in value (or massive increase in depreciation) after about 2027, I would say. "

I will say " if your car is 5 years old now !, save it as a Vintage car " There will be No other one like them AFTER that Infamous date .

IC car Prices should Rise accordingly. (  who in there right mind would buy a 10 year old car Ten years ago ).

Will all GA  IC aircraft be outlawed as Unregistrable as well !.

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

I last visited the U.K. in 1988. I stayed with an Auntie in Reading, Berks. I went there with my elderly mother after my father passed away, and we stayed in the U.K. there for 6 weeks, visiting Scotland as well in that period.

I hired a car to get around for some of the time, and often drove into London. Even back then, I can recall the traffic jams on the M4 started about 30kms out of the city.

I hate to think what the traffic is like there today. I know just how much it has increased locally in the last 33 years.

 

One thing I found the U.K. had, was excellent rail and bus networks. I presume they are still as good today. The trains were fast, on time and clean. The buses were similar.

I am not a fan of public transport and I rarely use it locally. The reason being the convoluted routes and the gaps between services here - and also a lack of trams or light rail locally.

 

When SWMBO and I toured Europe in 2010 and 2014 (France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Turkey), we found the rail and bus networks were good there, and the light rail in some of the major Spanish cities was also very good. Bilbao stands out as a great place for public transport, although we did have a hire car as well.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I still take my diesel XC90 into central London occasionally and pay my £12.50 for the privilege (it's a 2014 so doesn't meet Euro6 emmissions requirements).

 

The inter-city trains in the UK are excellent, but expensive.However, compared to France and Germany, UK inter-city trains have a fair way to go to catch up. The tube, which except for th Greenwich line is a minimum of 70 years old, and a lot has been around since the late 1800s with little upgrade to specs (in 1999 they were still running vacuum encased relays for driving signals) is unbelievable. I think it was better than the Metro in Paris last time I took it, but it lagged behing the Viennese. Also Vienna has a great tram network, too.

 

The bus network is excellent, and even in more rural areas, there is relatively good coverage with max around 20 minute waits. On some routes in London, the busses seem to be on a conveyer belt. Of course, this old series may have helped develop the bus network in London:

 

 

Back to the trains here, they are expensive. A stock economy return fare from Taunton to Paddington is £140, You can get them cheaper for off peak, but work doesn't really allow it. When I have to work in London, it is £70 return for the petrol (about 160 miles each way) to Barnes (free parking) and £12 urban rail/tube/buss pass for the day...

 

The time is only slightly longer as I have to go from Paddington to Liverpool Street to get to the office.. Unless of course, there is a traffic jam on the M3 or A303 (I never take the M4 - it is better than it used to be, but the busiest western motorway by a mile)... The pain point was going past stonehenge - single lane each way and people slow (and sometimes stop) to take a look. I had a detour that more often than not put me ahead though.

 

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

 

 

[willedoo]

When I look at Russia's EV, for some unknown reason I think of the Lada.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Same - the bonnet and the lights I think give it the Lada lineage appearance.

 

 

[red750]

Ford's electric Mustang Mach E topped car sales in Norway in May, eclipsing Tesla.

[Jerry_Atrick]

"Tesla Inc's Model 3 took sixth place."

 

Didn't expect that.