Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[onetrack]

I believe diesel vehicles over 3.5 tonnes in NZ are taxed on a kilometre rate, rather than an annual "rego" fee. You purchase your "road user charge" in increments of 1000kms.

 

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/licensing-rego/road-user-charges/about-ruc/

 

I would prefer a system like that - for older vehicles that do low kms, it's an attractive scheme.

[nomadpete]

The present system operates much like a mileage tax for petro/diesel powered vehicles anyway. But the advent of electric and hybrid vehicles it is way out of kilter.

 

Tax reform might hopefully address the fact that fuel excise/duty/tax is foisted upon us under the guise of making the user pay for his proportion of road maintenance. But in reality it gets siphoned into general revenue, whilst our roads are neglected. So might be seen as a 'wealth tax' whereby the poor can only afford to run a frugal little buzzbox.

 

With all our mod tech it would be possible to have a little transponder stuck to the windscreen, that logs usage. So higher rates are charged for congested inner city, and lower for the long country runs. And nil for short runs to the shops.

[nomadpete]

With AI and all the myriad of cameras all around us, we could buy some of that software that is already tested in china, and recognise every vehicle and it's travels.

We are already doing this for sending automated infringements for speeding and for mobile phone use by drivers. Shouldn't be too hard to set it up recognise vehicle size, log distance, and even bill a lower rate if the vehicle has more than one occupant.

[kgwilson]

With more electric vehicles coming on stream you can guarantee the pollies are working on a scheme to take their cut. Electric vehicles are perfect for congested city driving. When they are stopped in a traffic jam they use no energy at all other than the infotainment system and air conditioning which uses very little. Many electric vehicles have a separate independent battery for this. A mileage tax would therefore be more equitable when applied to electric vehicle in the city or the country.

[Marty_d]

Let me argue devil's advocate here for a moment.

So the fuel excise is 44c/L, which as everyone says doesn't go into road maintenance but into general revenue.  Primary industry and miners don't pay the excise, presumably because their vehicles aren't on the road.

 

The argument is that electric vehicles are road users, so they should pay their share of road costs.  However those users are already doing their bit for the environment by paying over the odds for an electric vehicle and thereby shouldering the excess costs borne by early adopters to benefit the rest of us.  In contrast, the mining companies pay nothing for their fuel emissions and add to the problem.

 

So why doesn't the government just say that the loss of fuel excise from road vehicles that go electric is simply payment to assist meeting our climate change goals?

[old man emu]

51 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Those users are already doing their bit for the environment by paying over the odds for an electric vehicle

The environmental effects of fuel usage aren't part of the discussion about fuel excise. The money coming from the excise is supposed to be applied to the whole of road transport infrastructure, from private property fence to private property fence. There is no difference to travel one kilometre down a road between the infrastructure requirements of a one tonne fuel burner and a one tonne electrically powered vehicle. 

 

58 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

So why doesn't the government just say that the loss of fuel excise from road vehicles that go electric is simply payment to assist meeting our climate change goals?

Because there is still a need to provide and maintain the road transport infrastructure. Even massive improvements to the fuel economy of ICE vehicles, which has a very positive effect on climate change goals, reduces the contribution each vehicle makes to maintaining  the infrastructure.

 

Each year, when you get your registration safety check, the vehicle's mileage is recorded. It's a simple arithmetical task to work out how far a vehicle has travelled in the year. If an arbitrary fuel consumption rate of, say 10 litres per 100 kms, was applied, then at he current rate, one could pay $4.40 for each 100 kilometres the vehicle had travelled. Then all road using vehicles, EV or ICE would make the same contribution. The only snag here is that it is easier to pay the excise each time you purchase fuel than be hit with a bill of about $4400 at the end of the registration year. And EVs wouldn't have the opportunity to do it in the same way.

[kgwilson]

3 minutes ago, old man emu said:

 

 

Each year, when you get your registration safety check, the vehicle's mileage is recorded. It's a simple arithmetical task to work out how far a vehicle has travelled in the year. 

Except that in NSW there is no check until the vehicle is 5 years old & in QLD there is no check no matter how old it is. The only check is when ownership changes hands.

[spacesailor]

WHEN , we get close to that ' end of life for IC vehicles.' 

All those still running wil be worth nothing, 

Then the cost of disposal could be horrendous 

Similar to the old tyre levy we pay now.

The wife suggested that we get an upgrade on the car, I thought it was too late NOW.

Our old car will be worth the same disposal  price, in ten or fifteen years, as our replacement 

IC Car would get, at that Same date. ( 2030 for UK  ).

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

You won't get the bit's to keep your ICE car going Spacey. They only provide them for 5 years and there's lots of different parts for each model let alone brand.. Nev

[nomadpete]

My prime gripe re: fuel excise:-

 

General revenue should not be raised via fuel sales.

 

 

[nomadpete]

In support of Spacey, our 15 year old cars owe us nothing, and touch wood, aren't falling to bits. They each have over 300,000k so far.

 

Tyres, Filters, oil and spark plugs will be around for a while yet. Residual value doesn't change now (unless you DID buy a Brock Commodore)

[facthunter]

I've always run big K's on all my vehicles but you'll need water pumps alternators and clutch kits and multi vee belts and radiator hoses which can be quite complex. Carburetters and old style fuel pumps disappeared in the 80s. Engine mounts also needed and harmonic balancers. coil packs and leads. Oils suitable for NON roller cam followers are not readily available. and early camshafts hard to look after.   You can buy a Shelby Mustang brand new for U$ 220,000  that you'll be able to get parts for and a leather interior that  is the ultimate. Nev

[nomadpete]

Too right, Nev

 

$220,000 would be the ultimate if it was in my bank account

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

, our 15 year old cars owe us nothing, and touch wood, aren't falling to bits

I just got my annual vehicle safety inspection today. The car has 150,000 on it and is 15 years old. I've been remiss in servicing it, so I decided to bite the bullet and get the timing belt changed. I rang up my part supplier in Sydney and asked if he had the timing belt replacement kit. As soon as I paid for it he pulled it off the shelf and put it aside for me to pick up.

 

So I don't think that there really is a spare parts drought. Maybe genuine factory parts are scarce (and overpriced), but there are other sources.

[facthunter]

Certain brands are worse than others in this respect. Some models of vehicle disappear fast from the roads for this reason.. Some repro parts are nowhere near original in quality. Ie Windscreens.. They are quite cheap but smash easily. Nev

[kgwilson]

My 2012 Mitsubishi Lancer Platinum was 10 years old on the 22nd of February. I have just ticked over 198,630km. It gets serviced every 15,000km & I have had to replace 1 interior light bulb, I am on the second battery and 3rd set of tyres. It has CVT transmission which has been faultless & nothing has gone wrong with it yet. My plan is to replace it with an EV when the price gets reasonable. There are some fabulous Chinese EVs but they are not available in Australia yet. With Covid, the IC shortage & now the Russians stuffing things up I may have a bit of a wait. I'll just keep going & hope things will get better.

[spacesailor]

My point is, government interference to Make our beloved IC motors obsellete.

At that date it will be like Sweden, with their cars scrapt after a few years.

spacesailor

[Marty_d]

Heard an interview with a bloke who's both a renewables expert and a car freak.  Loves his cars, has 5 classics including a '61 Lincoln Continental convertible like the one Kennedy was shot in.

He's either converted, or is converting, them all to electric.  He drove the Lincoln from Melbourne to Canberra for the presentation he did, there was plenty of charging points on the way, cost him about $20 in electricity for the round trip.

 

I really like the idea of having a classic car with an electric motor.  Beauty, reliability and good for the environment.

[spacesailor]

How do you take out a donk, &  replace it with an electric motor.

No part of the car has the right ' clutch housing ' ' engine mounts '  or ' brake booster ' conections to mount an electric motor.

NSW won,t even let you put a V8 into a V6 car.!.

spacesailor

[octave]

11 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

How do you take out a donk, &  replace it with an electric motor.

EVolution Conversions | Melbourne-based classic-car EV Conversions

 

 

[spacesailor]

Evolution conversions will not open !.

But how will the ( old RTA ) nsw services allow it ?. When you can,t put larger wheels on your suv.

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

 

Try this link

 EVolution Conversions | Melbourne-based classic-car EV Conversions |

 

In my local area there is a club where people get together and convert cars.  They have converted and registered many vehicles.  

 

Here is company in NSW that does conversions  Australia Electric Vehicle Conversion

Edited March 18, 2022 by octave

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, spacesailor said:

How do you take out a donk, &  replace it with an electric motor.

First you have to get an engineer's certificate that says that it can be done. I think that one governing factor is that the electric motor cannot produce more horsepower equivalent than the IC engine. That's all got to do with braking ability. That's why you can't shoehorn a V8 into a 6 cylinder engine bay and get the vehicle registered.

 

If you simply replaced the IC with an electric, then you would have to use an adapter plate to join the motor to the gearbox. But do EVs have a gearbox?

 

Should have watched the video first!

Done properly, it's a very expensive undertaking. As the people say, you could get killed doing it if you don't have the experience with high voltage.

 

I don't get why someone would take an "historic" ICE vehicle and basically keep the body and throw away the running gear. Old cars and motorcycles are the sum of their parts, and can show the advances in both engine design and passive safety that have been made over the years. 

 

Forget about the body shapes and compare this 1961 Holden EK 

to this Last of the Commodores 

The old EK with its normally aspirated inline 6 cylinder engine of 138 cubic inches (2,260 cc), producing 75 bhp (56 kW) was supposed to be the duck's guts when introduced, but if they tried to introduce it today, it wouldn't meet ADRs for safety. However, an EK is an example of what we drove back then, and got killed or seriously injured by hitting the steering column or metal dashboard (no seatbelts) while getting fuel consumption of something like 25 miles per gallon (about 11 litres per 100 kms) 

 

[octave]

46 minutes ago, old man emu said:

But do EVs have a gearbox?

 

I think some retain the original gearbox especially with classic cars.   In this video they discuss a Jag conversion in which they kept the gearbox.   The relevant part is around the 6:10 although various other vehicles discussed also retain the gearbox. I think retaining the gearbox is not necessary   and is more a case of keeping the vehicle as close to original as possible. I think it probably would only make sense converting sense a car that had special value rather than spending 20k on a 3k car.

 

I took these pictures at the open day of our local RV conversion club.

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

I tried the video !, but it wouln,t load.

Dollar for dollar l can buy a second-hand electric Hyundai, ( $34,900 ) ,

or a ROLLS-ROYCE. ( $ 33,500 at dealership )

I think a converted electric RR would suit me fine,  Especially when its gets a vintage badge.& we oldies go touring.

Much nicer than my old 1949 Austin Devon. / 1953 Morris Oxford, or more old banger,s lv,e owned.

spacesailor

Edited March 19, 2022 by spacesailor
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