Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[nomadpete]

To put electric car ownership into perspective think about refuelling it. Information about Tesla model 3, which has a 60kwh battery which gives about 340mile range:

 

", a three-pin cable is supplied more as an emergency backup than as a routine charging solution. It’ll take a couple of days to fully charge the Model 3 from a domestic socket – giving you around 10 miles of range per hour."

 

They promote it as taking a full charge in 12 hours....... but that is from a 'standard' 7kw power outlet. Here in Aus, a standard outlet is 2.4kw, and if used at that rate, it gets hot!

So a 3kw rooftop solar array might give a full charge in about 9 days, if it stays sunny for 9 days straight. (Based on hoping for 6hrs sun per day)

 

BTW, a 15 amp outlet is not part of a standard house wiring - it is a extra expense for most of us

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by nomadpete

[nomadpete]

I am not denigrating the concept of ev's. They are the way to go. Literally.

 

But for ME, ev ownership will not be viable until after I can afford another 5 or 6 kw of solar panels (and use car battery for house energy), as well as a new car.

 

That is, not for the forseeable future. Possibly (sad to say) not in my lifetime.

Edited June 28, 2022 by nomadpete
Caveat added

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

The electricity you get from those wires won't charge anything . It would have to go through a substantial transformer and a rectifier. Nev

Nowadays, big transformers are out of fashion. Unless you are thinking of really big ones such as substation or pole transformers. It is far cheaper to use switched mode power supplies - at least up to the level of welders, big battery chargers and such stuff. Notice how cheap and light a phone charger or modern welder is? No transformer. All power control and charging in electric vehicles is electronic, too.

[facthunter]

You still have to push a lot of energy in unless you can wait.  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

33 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

I am not denigrating the concept of ev's. They are the way to go. Literally.

 

But for ME, ev ownership will not be viable until after I can afford another 5 or 6 kw of solar panels (and use car battery for house energy), as well as a new car.

NP many of us are in the same boat. Plugging our EVs into the grid when they’re not in use (that’s most of the time) will provide a powerful distributed battery system. During high demand periods, a smart car would happily sell a % of it’s charge into the grid at peak prices, then cheaply buy back charge when supply exceeds demand.

33 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

 

That is, not for the forseeable future. Possibly (sad to say) not in my lifetime.

I’m more optimistic, especially sinse the recent management change in Canberra has removed a major roadblock. Don’t be surprised if the EV adoption rate goes thru the roof in the next few years. Current high fossil fuel prices and uncertainty over availabilty should boost our transition towards a more self-sufficient energy market.

 

Australia has usually been a leader in adopting new technologies. Accellerating global adoption rates should apply here:

 

 

 

[onetrack]

Inverter technology in welders is magic to me. I used to have a little 140 amp CIG stick welder, which ran off a 15A three-pin plug - which was good - but it weighed about 40 kgs (even though it was a "handyman welder"), it contained a massive transformer, and it peaked out at 140 amps output at the electrode.

But it eventually died, and so I got a little Chinese inverter welder with Toshiba mosfets. This thing is bloody amazing. It puts out 200 amps and I can weld heavier steel and use a bigger electrode than I could with the CIG transformer welder - and it weighs just 7kgs!

Surely inverter technology must come into its own with EV battery charging?

[Old Koreelah]

I have a couple of old dead welders in my shed, but my tiny little inverter welder is the best I’ve used. Worn strapped over my shoulder, I used it to weld together my pool room roof. It’s so easy to use the result almost looks like I know what I’m doing!

[nomadpete]

3 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

happily sell a % of it’s charge into the grid at peak prices, then cheaply buy back charge when supply exceeds demand.

Yeah, they promised us that way back when we first put solar PV on our roof. Don't expect fair prices when the grid desperately needs to suck my ev dry. I was thinking more along the lines of I cutting my grid connection, thereby saving my $360 p.a. connection fee. And using the ev to keep the lights on at night.

[Old Koreelah]

12 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Yeah, they promised us that way back when we first put solar PV on our roof. Don't expect fair prices when the grid desperately needs to suck my ev dry…

Depends: will Albo let the big power companies maximize profits, or maximize reliablity of supply?

[facthunter]

The grid connection fee is about the same as oxy bottle rent. Good value for money when you think what it covers.  Nev

[octave]

V2G is not about sucking your EV dry overnight.   The idea is that at some points in the day demand rises dramatically for a short time for example when most of us cook our dinner. We are talking about drawing small amounts of power from many EVs and house batteries rather than  firing up a peaker plant with its enormous economical and environmental cost.  The idea is that you will be paid for your contribution to the grid, your EV can become an income generating asset.

Consider the courier business that has a large fleet of vehicles.   After a days deliveries these vehicles may still have reserves and can contribute to supporting the grid during the short sharp peaks and then charge in the hours overnight when demand drops and power is cheaper.  A company that has solar panels on their buildings can actually contribute (sell) power to the grid.

 

It is interesting to consider if half of the 5157172 vehicles in Victoria were EVs we could draw 1Kwh from half of them and have 2.5Gwh to contribute to the grid.    

 

On the subject of EV charging the doubters usually talk about time taken to charge an EV from 0% to 100%.  This is an extremely rare occurrence.   I do not own an EV but I am looking to get one within the next year.   My son does own a Tesla (which I get to drive when I visit him in NZ). As I said earlier he started with a 15amp granny lead. The outlet for this lead was pre existing and was installed in his garage to power larger power tools.  His normal trip to work is about 15km each way.   Lets say he drives into town during working hours (30km round trip)  60 Km.  With a bog standard 10amp granny lead you are looking at 6 hours charging time to cover this usage.

 

In terms of the grid, I absolutely  agree that the grid could not instantly cope with us all changing our IC cars for EVs but for other reasons this is not possible anyway.    Most states have incentives for householders to  switch from gas cooking and hot water to electric for environment reasons.   I have not heard of any cries of "the grid wont cope".  The grid grows to cover demand.   New houses tend to have air-conditioning and for the most part the grid does cope, 

 

Because I am strongly considering buying an EV I have for the last few months I have been modelling my vehicle use as if I owned an EV.  I have looked at my excess power from my solar system which at the moment I sell for a pretty low price back to the grid. I have looked at when this power is available and how that would fit into my driving needs.  I have worked out that conservatively I could drive 10000 to 14000 km per year.  Being retired I do have some flexibility that perhaps working people who travel long distances might not have.   I would never assume that EVs are right for everyone at this point in time.  

[nomadpete]

As I said before, i am not an ev doubter.

 

But Octave, you are making some big assumptions.

 

Ev batteries are not recommended to be charged 100% or discharged to 0%. Incidentally that means you shouldn't use the full range of the car. Equally, the usual charge is less than a full theoretical charge.

 

Grid: You are oversimplifying AEMO's grid management capabilities. At present AEMO are having trouble managing gen/load balance in the East Coast grid.  If you think that V2G will fill the evening peak demand, isn't that when workers are arriving home, wanting to recharge their commuter ev batteries? Around dinner time I was often out running Dad's taxi to pick up and drop off kids. Every night AEMO will be trying to replace 2.5Gwh borrowed from your 2 million ev's plus find another 5Gwh to recharge them for tomorrow's commute. Not saying it won't work at all, but not something that works like a broad brush to solve a growing problem. It sounds great and wouldn't cause problems whilst only a minority are using it. But if the expected uptake happens, we need to be setting up systems to deliver it, right now. And we aren't even starting to plan the control systems to make it work.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by nomadpete

[Old Koreelah]

NP I have a little more faith in market forces- which should price power and allocate resources efficiently. Computer controlled systems would instantly switch your car from sucking in power when price (and demand) is low to contributing to the grid when price (and demand) is high. The role of governments is to provide long-term incentives to investors and protect consumers from the many market manipulations big business too often gets away with. 

[Marty_d]

Bloody national grid, don't get me started.  We were entirely self sufficient with hydro power here in Tassie until some arse went and put interconnectors to the mainland. 

Now, despite the dams being full, all of a sudden the east coast grid goes nuts and we're on blackout alert, and copping higher prices!

And that's when they're not running the dams dry to take advantage of high mainland power prices, only to then spend millions on diesel generation.

Disconnect us, I say.

[Old Koreelah]

57 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Bloody national grid, don't get me started.  We were entirely self sufficient with hydro power here in Tassie until some arse went and put interconnectors to the mainland…

 

Disconnect us, I say.

…until the next long drought, when your dams are too low to produce enough power?

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

Bloody national grid, don't get me started.  We were entirely self sufficient with hydro power here in Tassie until some arse went and put interconnectors to the mainland. 

Now, despite the dams being full, all of a sudden the east coast grid goes nuts and we're on blackout alert, and copping higher prices!

And that's when they're not running the dams dry to take advantage of high mainland power prices, only to then spend millions on diesel generation.

Disconnect us, I say.

Marty, what happened to that proposed Chinese wind farm over near Smithton. I heard that all the power was to be exported to the mainland. Maybe they knocked the plan on the head now that we don't like China anymore.

[red750]

This popped up on FB.

 

"Did you know that Wirral (UK) has more than 50 electric vehicle charging points that are completely free of charge to use? 💡⚡️ These will remain free until October to encourage more greener travel in our area. "  Wirral Council

 

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said:

…until the next long drought, when your dams are too low to produce enough power?

We've had hydro power for 106 years.  We've had a connection to Vic for 13 years.  You're confusing us with the big hot island that gets droughts - the only time in recent  history we haven't been able to produce enough energy through hydro is when they ran the dams down in a fit of greed to supply the Vic market.

 

54 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Marty, what happened to that proposed Chinese wind farm over near Smithton. I heard that all the power was to be exported to the mainland. Maybe they knocked the plan on the head now that we don't like China anymore.

Sorry Willedoo - no idea.

[red750]

Melbourne Charging Stations Map & Legend
Green chargers are generally level 1 or 2 chargers for the general public. These may incur a fee
Orange ev chargers are are high power charging locations like Tesla Superchargers for example
Grey stations are are currently at capacity or are full

 

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

NP I have a little more faith in market forces- which should price power and allocate resources efficiently. Computer controlled systems would instantly switch your car from sucking in power when price (and demand) is low to contributing to the grid when price (and demand) is high. The role of governments is to provide long-term incentives to investors and protect consumers from the many market manipulations big business too often gets away with. 

OldK, So far, I can't see any results of these market forces, of which you speak. Probably because 'market forces' is code that means 'if somebody can get rich from it'. I haven't heard a squeak about these computer controls that will be implemented. Are they going to be fitted to every power point in the country, or to every ev? Will our AEMO be remotely controlling them? Because AEMO are the ones who control the starting and stopping of power stations (including solar farms and windfarms). Also have a lot to do with load shedding when the grid has energy shortfall or instability (although much of that is automated). It's been a couple of years since I visited AEMO.

 

I'd like to hear of any progress beyond vague politician's argy bargy. It is really important to keep ahead of the game because these big infrastructure changes cannot be made at short notice.

[kgwilson]

I have spoken to quite a few EV owners and have yet to find one who is not absolutely enamoured with his/her EV. All have day jobs and charge the vehicles overnight at home. Most don't have high capacity chargers, just the standard 10 amp socket.

 

Fast charging stations are few & far between at this stage and Australia is miles behind the rest of the world but now with a change of Government attitude things should improve.

 

CATLs new QILIN battery technology will start being installed in cars in early 2023. It has dramatically improved energy density and can be charged from 0 to 80% in about 10 minutes with energy density of 255W per KG at the pack level. This will provide real world driving range well over 1000km for medium size cars. 

 

For most people though charging from home at night will work just fine. If you also have a battery linked to your PV system then power can be transferred both ways. To the car when it is low and from the car when there is a power cut. The current development is mind boggling and dramatic improvements will be here before we know it, certainly within a couple of years

Edited June 28, 2022 by kgwilson

[nomadpete]

Funny that I hear people saying public chargers are scarce. We seem to have them in every little town -at least in southern Tassie. Believe it or not, about 4 years ago I saw two different brand chargers beside a isolated store on Bruny Island. And look at Red's map for his area. If you punch up a quick websearch, there seems to be heaps of ev chargers out there.

 

As I voiced before, I think that solar charged ev-to-home, off grid power setups will be the big adoption phase for ev's in Australia. The public will justify a slightly dearer car if they can give the power company the flick.

[nomadpete]

Yes, every ev driver whom I have asked, absolutey love their ev. I have yet to get behind the wheel of one - mainly because I know I can't afford to buy one........ yet!

[old man emu]

I'd like to drive one simply to find out if they react differently when you take your foot of the power control lever (accelerator). In normal driving, I use engine compression braking, airflow drag and tyre/road friction to slow down to about 40 kph, then I'll tease the brakes on if I need to actually stop. Since the only difference between an EV and ICE is the method of torque generation, does an EV slow in some way that is similar to an ICE's compression braking?

[onetrack]

That Chinese CATL company is really promising a major advance in Lithium battery technology. Whether they can actually produce the goods, that stacks up to the advertised performance, is the $64 question. Virtually every Chinese electrical device has over-rated claims for its performance - ranging from Chinese gensets and batteries, right through to Chinese consumer goods.

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/catl-launches-ctp-3-0-battery-qilin-achieves-the-highest-integration-level-in-the-world-301573892.html

 

What I found interesting is that CATL has another subsidiary company, which is roaring into battery-swap technology. The company is EVOGO, and they're taking battery swap/rental technology to new levels, with a standard modest-size battery that you can rent in varying numbers according to your needs. You can just grab one battery for tooling out to the suburbs, or you can grab three batteries for a trip to the country. They're also aiming at installing automated swap stations.

 

 

I can see a conflict here, between the advantages of swaps, as compared to the increasing fast charging abilities of new batteries eliminating the need for swapping - and the desire of EV owners to utilise the massive capacity of a big battery to power their house when the car isn't being used.

 

I see using the car to power the house being a bit of a conundrum, because most people jump in the car on a regular basis to go and do something. But once you hook your house up to the car battery, you're stopped from using the EV for transport. 

 

I do agree greatly with the EVOGO idea that there's a need to balance the cost and size of the battery in an EV according to what the end-user really needs - and more importantly - can afford.

On that basis, the swap system with a rental amount that is say, monthly, might be a far more attractive option to the majority, as compared to forking out $100K+ for a big-battery EV, that is essentially over-capitalisation.

 

And on the eccentric, mad inventor, end of the planet, Elon Musk released his "Ultra-Insane" Plaid electric motor last June with a power output that only looks suitable for dragsters, IMO.  

 

https://insideevs.com/news/513388/tesla-models-plaid-drive-unit/

 

Possibly more interestingly, Tesla is now saying it will be changing to a new 4680 battery by Panasonic that promises a five-fold increase in energy capacity, a 15% increase in vehicle range - and a substantially lower manufacturing cost, reported to be 10-20% - but which figure may reduce further again with more refinement.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2022/01/24/panasonics-higher-capacity-tesla-battery-could-enter-production-in-2023/

 

And of course, CATL claim their new QILIN battery is 13% better than the 4680...... and so on it goes......

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by onetrack