Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[octave]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

Brians practical approach to EV vehicles is that it's best that you buy what you need now, for your precise useage needs, don't buy the biggest range EV just for bragging rights, as you will probably never need that huge range.

Absolutely correct in my view.  When discussing EVs people will often present cases such as towing a caravan across the Simpson Desert etc. They will say EVs are useless because they cant do this.  I usually point out that neither can my IC Ford Focus but it does fulfill 99% of what I need it to do.  Occasionally I may hire a furniture van to move something or get Bunnings to deliver something I cant fit in my car, but I am not going to purchase a vehicle based on small percentage of time I need a vehicle with different capabilities.  

 

Given the gradual change to electric there is still plenty of time for those who wish to buy an IC vehicle.   Although many countries have chosen dates to restrict the sale of NEW IC vehicles I am pretty sure that well before this date EVs will be the economicaly rational choice.   Some people will probably choose to pay higher running costs to run their old IC car.

 

 

[red750]

40 minutes ago, octave said:

I am not going to purchase a vehicle based on small percentage of time I need a vehicle with different capabilities.  

Agree. My average driving would be around 250-300 km per week. Local stuff - supermarket, doctor, Men's Shed, etc. I don't need a Mercedes or BMW (Big Money Waster) for that sort of driving. I no longer have a wife to drive around, and my kids all have their own cars.That's why something like the Ace-EV Urban would meet my needs. But starting around $36,000, it's a bit rich also. When I get around to getting another car, it will be used, and if available at a reasonable price, a hybrid.

 

As Steve Jobs once said, a Toyota Camry will get you where you are going as well as a Mercedes will, why pay the extra. 

[onetrack]

I've bought Camrys for SWMBO for the last 30 years (and I drive them quite a bit as well), and they have provided some of the cheapest and most reliable motoring I've ever had. We've never bought one new, always low kms, and a couple of years old. Deceased estate cars are most often the best deal.

 

We used to buy them at 2 - 2-1/2 years old, and sell them after about another 2-3 years, still with modest kms and excellent resale. Repairs were non-existent, and just oil and filter changes and the odd tyre or two was all we ever spent on them. They got us all around W.A., up to 600-800kms from home. Over that, we fly and hire a car.

The total running and depreciation costs (excluding rego) for the Camrys runs to about $1500 annually on this basis. Many people sneer at the Camry, but it's one of Toyotas biggest sellers.

 

Over the years we've hung onto them longer and longer, the last one I sold (a 2002 model), we hung onto for 13 years, it was such a good car. Even with 160,000kms on the clock, I still got $4000 for it in a private sale. It did cost me a little bit in repairs, I had to re-do the headlining, replace the thermostat, replace the brake pads and rotors, and I had to fix a serious leak on the oil pump (a common fault, which is hard to trace).

The oil pump is mounted on the front of the engine, so it's easy enough to fix, you just have to go unbolt the engine mountings and jack the engine up a bit, and go at it through the wheel arch. It only takes 3 seals to fix, one lip-type seal, and 2 O-rings.

 

The Camry Atara we have now is an even better car than all the previous ones. It's a real highway/drivers car, it sticks to the road like glue, and is a pleasure to drive.

Our last trip, Perth to Bunbury (340kms return), we got 6.4L/100kms, so fuel use is not a major cost with them. I'm hard-pressed to know what to buy next, this car is a 2012 model, so it's 10 yrs old already, but it's only done 83,000kms, so we have a few years of reliable and cheap motoring in front of us yet.

 

I was previously inclined towards a hybrid, but I'm starting to think hybrids are a waste of time, and too complex and heavy, as they have 2 different drivetrains for more weight and cost, and in the long term, I can't see any savings with them, just the convenience of the choice of electricity or petrol.

However, right at present, another good condition, low-mileage petrol Camry is still looking like a good choice for the interim until EV prices come down from their current high levels.

 

I also wonder what the lifespan of some of these new batteries is going to be like, and whether after 15 yrs, a battery death will make the car worthless, and only fit to be scrapped.

Right at present, a 15 yr old petrol Camry in good condition with reasonable kms is still quite saleable, and you never have any trouble selling them.

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

In terms of used car values, just look at the used car websites. There are quite a few Teslas and Leafs on sale. I am sure there are few of the thers, too. The values depreciate relatively quickly, but that is to be expected without a history of how long those batteries will last and how much they will cost to replace. There are quite a few ICE cars that also depreciate rapidly as well, despite them being OK (Nissan Infinite, for example).

 

Will the car be valueless by the time the battery needs replacement? Well, it somewhat depends on teh length of time the battery takes, replacement value of the car, and the battery technology. Often, yesterday's technology manufacturing no longer needs to cover the cost of the captial, as it has been amortised/depreciated fully, so the cost is a marginal profit margin on the cost of manufacture. The prices of the older tech batteries (providing there is demand for them) should be lower than replacement value when new. So, it may be more viable to keep the car depending on other factors (condition of the car, the new car tech/price v the n ew battery), etc. What it does show, though, is nothing is for free, and the cost of a replacement battery is a deferral of the cost of fuel.. I have had cars for up to 15 years, and I can't recall having to replace a fuel tank, yet.  Of course, the cost of the new battery should be apportioned to the cost of electricity charging, oil and other lubricants, and additional maintenance required for ICE engines in calculating the deferred cost. But you get the drift.

 

Anyway,  I am a way off buying another car thanks to pandemic income loss, and needing to get this house finished..  But when I do, it will either be hydrogen or EV.. .Hopefully, Albo will put restrictions on the ability to purchase new ICE cars after a set year (with obvious exceptions), but ultimately, the ICE engine will go the way of the Dodo, as, duie to the pickup of EVs and Hydro, the demand for petrol and Deisel will be reduced.. esp, if the firms that convert trucks to EV become successful (although, in Aus, a 600KM range could be limiting on road trains).

 

 

[facthunter]

3 or 5 years ago there was plenty of options to make hybrids of existing vehicles. The weight of batteries you are lugging around seems an issue?  nev

[pmccarthy]

My wife has a Corolla hybrid. Performs very well and uses very little fuel. I can't fault it as a choice of car.

[onetrack]

I'd opine, that something else to be careful of with EV's is rapid developmental obsolescence. You see this with a multitude of electronic items - and especially battery-powered cordless tools.

You buy a new cordless tool, and in 5 mins flat, it's obsolete - because the newest ones run on a higher voltage, or the battery design has changed, so the newest batteries don't fit your current cordless tool. It's a PIA, and it's bad enough the different battery types over the years.

I bought a cheap Chinese cordless drill about 5-6 years ago, and I bought an 18V Ni-Cd battery powered version - because Ni-Cd's are noted for their "grunt" when it comes to power tools. They do have a problem with memory effect, and dendrites growing in the cells.

 

However, I wasn't aware when I bought the Ni-Cd drill, that the EU had already banned new Ni-Cd's from sale - in 2016. They're definitely on the way out, although you can still buy Ni-Cd batteries off AliExpress.

In the meantime the batteries in the Ni-Cd drill have died, but the drill still works just fine, and it's a handy drill, and I like it. So, I've just ordered 15 Sub-C Ni-Cd batteries, and I'm going to rebuild the battery pack.

 

So - then we went over to Ni-Mh. Supposedly, more power than Ni-Cd, and no memory effect. Millions of cordless tools were produced (and are still being produced) with Ni-Mh power.

 

Now, Li-ion has taken over as the primary cordless/portable power tool technology - but even at that, many Li-ion cordless tool users are griping about regular battery design changes, that means their cordless tool has just become obsolete, because the "newest design" Li-ion batteries don't fit their current cordless tool.

 

That's not to even start on the myriad of battery styles, none of which are compatible with any other cordless device. It's a just a bloody racket, all designed to keep scarfing the money off you.

It's a system that only creates excessive levels of electronic and electric waste - which is the exact opposite of what the "green" electric-power revolution is supposed to be all about.

 

https://www.electronicspecifier.com/industries/automotive/ev-battery-standardisation-the-pros-and-cons

 

https://insideevs.com/news/587455/batteries-tesla-using-electric-cars/

 

We set standards for common batteries earlier, that gave us AAA, AA, C, and D cells, and standardisation for a heap of button batteries. Imagine the battery scramble if that hadn't happened?

By far the most annoying part, is that every cordless tool runs on basic cells - Ni-Cd's all just use Sub-C cells, Ni-Mh use Sub-C dimension cells, Li-ion use 18650 cells - all just arranged to suit the different, oddly-shaped battery cases!

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

My wife has a Corolla hybrid. Performs very well and uses very little fuel. I can't fault it as a choice of car.

My partner likes minis, so we looked at the Countryman hybrid. In the end, we decided against it. It had enough range on a battery to get us to town and back to pick up the kids... and I don't think there was regenerative recharging or whatever it is called. My partner admitted that by the time she got home, got the shopping in, and the kids settled, she wouldn't have been bothered going back outside to plug it in and iwould have relied on the petrol - espcecially if it was crappy weather, or, as it does here in winter, get dark and cold by about 3:30pm. So, we decided it wasn't for us, though we were given one to test drive over the weekend. So, wee simulated the day runs to see what shge would do. She loved the car, but admitted, it would be used mainly oin petrol mode, so we went for a near new petrol model instead. I don't regret it - even with the hike in petrol prices.. because I know we would have paid more foir less boot space (which is wher they put the battery).

 

Horses for courses.

[spacesailor]

The cordless items have a very short life for some reason! .

18 months is the best we have had on our THREE cordless vacum cleaners,  one only made eleven months.

AND

No replacement batteries.

SO

How do you repair those batterypacks , ' onetrack ' ?. ( one dead cell  ).

I can't  just ' solder ' a terminal onto the battery top .

spacesailor

[pmccarthy]

We have had the same experience with cordless vacuum cleaners. I rebuilt the battery pack on one but it died again so it went out in the garbage last week. I suspect they have to be left on trickle charge permanently, which doesn’t suit our house where we keep them in a broom cupboard.

[onetrack]

Spacey, you can buy a little spot welder from AliExpress for welding the tabs on the Sub-C cells. 

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003165461411

[onetrack]

In an interesting development, the Basques have jumped on to the Li-ion battery bandwagon. But as with all of the Basques cleverness in initiative and drive, they've teamed up with French professor Michel Armand - often called the Father of the Li-ion battery, thanks to his extensive research and development work on the Li-ion battery designs - and the Basques are going full bore into Solid State Polymer Li-ion battery production. The terminology description for these new design batteries is All-Solid-State Lithium Batteries (ASSLB).

 

The Polymer Li-ion battery design is the brainchild of Armand, allowing the manufacture of a Lithium battery whereby the polymer-based electrolyte is in a solid state, thus eliminating the liquid state of the electrolyte in current Li-ion battery designs. The Polymer electrolyte increases the battery safety, and improves battery energy density by a sizeable margin. The Basques are looking at initial production of their version of the ASSLB by 2027.

 

https://basquevolt.com/en

[facthunter]

There's been a Basque revolt on for decades.  Nev

[onetrack]

Reminds me of the old Wizard of Id cartoon. Sir Rodney is looking over the ramparts, and says to the King, "Sire, the peasants are revolting!" - and the King replies, "They certainly are!"

[facthunter]

 I thought the King replied "I know. I've SEEN them"    Nev

[onetrack]

Nev, I think there's a number of varieties of response to the saying about the peasants. I believe Mel Brooks used the gag in one of his films, and it crops up regularly in other quotes.

[kgwilson]

Personally I think lithium is about at its peak now and due to the resource being relatively scarce and increasingly more expensive, sodium will replace it within a few years. Salt is half chlorine and half sodium so it is readily available and very cheap. https://www.dw.com/en/the-batteries-of-the-future-sodium-instead-of-lithium/a-54707542

 

Then there is Brisbane based Graphene Manufacturing Group (GMG) that has produced a graphene aluminium ion battery that charges 70 times faster than lithium, lasts 3 times longer and is better for the environment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWJSGKezHfA&t=9s

[red750]

An article a friend sent me about heating an EV in winter.

 

https://www.justevs.com/ev-heating-in-winter/
 

[facthunter]

That's useful stuff. In very cold places the ICE engine has to be kept heated or the oil congeals.  Fire engines also so you can gun them quickly on demand. Also stand by diesel generators, The electric car is here and will only get better.  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

22 hours ago, onetrack said:

I'd opine, that something else to be careful of with EV's is rapid developmental obsolescence. You see this with a multitude of electronic items - and especially battery-powered cordless tools...

Let’s hope the regulators step in. The EU has already introduced compatibility rules for phone chargers, forcing Apple to use the same as the opposition. They also have been hammring planned obselescence, so maybe we should soon see more long-lasting tools.

I’m in the market for a battery chainsaw; the main attribute must be long-term availability of parts. I’m leaning towards Makita, because I’ve been using a 7.2v Makita drill for almost forty years. The battery cases (filled with non-NiCads) can still be purchased.

[onetrack]

The Sodium batteries have less energy density and are much heavier than Lithium batteries - at present. Perhaps developments in the Sodium battery field will improve them to the point where they beat Li-ion. But at present, it appears the main potential for Sodium batteries is in grid power. They do have an advantage in that Sodium is much cheaper to produce than Lithium, and much more plentiful.

[kgwilson]

Sodium is heavier than Lithium but given that the Lithium makes up only around 5% of the total battery weight the extra weight is not that much of a disadvantage and energy density of sodium is about 160 Wh/Kg compared to lithiums 200 Wh/Kg. Both are improving with next generation Sodium Ion expected to reach more than 200Wh/Kg so the ball park is set to get very level except price which is Lithium Ions downfall.

[Bruce Tuncks]

With model planes, the IC engines died out with zero pressure from any govt. The electric stuff is so much better, in terms of starting and oil soakage . One day, I flew with an old mate, me with my electric radio-controlled "free-flight", he with his IC engine job. He was most put out by the fact that I could have several attempts to find a thermal, while he only had one. 

The biggest maker of model engines, OS of Japan, actually marketed an electric motor, having their market stolen by those darn things.

I reckon my next car will be electric, and I expect that small fibreglass trailers will carry the extra batteries for long trips. Service stations will have exchange battery trailers.

I dunno about big stuff like trucks... maybe they will be the last hangout for the IC engine. Maybe long-haul passenger jets will be the last hangout for jet engines too.

[red750]

[old man emu]

On 16/08/2022 at 4:37 PM, octave said:

I suspect that any prescribing of the fuel used to drive a car will be determined by what comes out of the tailpipe.    

Don't say that too loudly! Do you want to be forced to have an emissions test as part of your annual roadworthiness inspection? The current brake efficiency test is an absolute joke. I've had a licensed inspector (garage) do teh brake test while standing next to the stationary car and simply shaking the test instrument.

 

I used to carry out skid-to-stop tests to obtain tyre/road friction coefficients for accident reconstruction. I had a special accelerometer instrument to collect data. I had to put used tyres on the test vehicle because skid-to-stop tests from 60 kph "flat spot" the tyres. I can't see people being happy with that happening to their tyres every year.