Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[onetrack]

A couple of friends in the SW of W.A. with a rural block, paid $47,000 to have mains power connected, over a distance of 600 metres - and that was 8 years ago!!

 

The problem is - even then, they still only got the maximum power supply available - a 22A "rural power", 2 phase power supply - which means that they can't even run any 3 phase equipment!

[facthunter]

Well 2 phase won't do the Job. That's what I have here and it's no benefit at such a low power level either.  nev

[octave]

https://electrek.co/2022/12/30/tomorrows-the-last-day-hyundai-will-sell-any-ice-cars-in-norway/

 

 

[red750]

Tiny electric car for wheelchairs.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Here on the farm, I was quoted $16,500 to install ONE pole with a transformer. The Single Wire Earth Return ran through an adjacent paddock just across the road. At the time, it would have been $16,000 to install an off-grid system.

So what we did was to build closer and run another underground line from the shearing shed. All legally done.

I actually would have liked to be completely off-grid, but the only guy I knew who did this had his woman leave him. With an electric car, you could have storage for not much  extra.

Harry Schneider lived off the grid in his dotage and and he died from Alzheimer's. I don't think this was related but some people do.

[facthunter]

Where there's been a large uptake of solar might be a good place for a community funded battery installation... Nev

[Old Koreelah]

There has been a focus on going “off-grid” and getting away from dependence on the network. It appleals especially to preppers and doomsday types, but does nothing to foster community cooperation and interdependence. 

This is Australia, where we should be able to trust our neighbours, even when the poo hits the fan.

Community batteries are a viable and economical way to shore up the grid, while maintaining civic cooperation.

[old man emu]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/686163892852755/?s=single_unit&__cft__[0]=AZWxbYvBe1gB0JEj2FmXYdTouHUazMvOSu8SIvkD1PL8zvMzc6Z3y2meMRwtTh4Tp0xMafzccO-r5rrSiBz138gqLgfUaYgBKGsxQBnSOnG3REt3zvHa6PAkgZdTMXC2pU5-iYP7ohASfoXg038y9Xhio5tqXvCSt62FFW8pyFBrAw&__tn__=H-R

[Jerry_Atrick]

I did read somewhere that quite a few early cars were EVs and some quirk of fate at the time where for a short period, Gasoline (petrol) was cheaper than electricity or something, meant manufacturers foussed on ICE engines.

 

Imagine the EV development (and possibly renewable development as a result) that would have taken place if that quirk of fate hadn't have taken place. I did a couple of searches, but can't find anything via google.

 

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

some quirk of fate

I think that you'll find that the price of gasoline in the USA was dictated by Standard Oil. Standard Oil dominated the oil products market initially through horizontal integration in the refining sector, then, in later years vertical integration; the company was an innovator in the development of the business trust. The Standard Oil trust streamlined production and logistics, lowered costs, and undercut competitors. "Trust-busting" critics accused it of using aggressive pricing to destroy competitors and form a monopoly that threatened other businesses. That aggressive pricing was undoubtedly aimed at other energy sources for the developing motor vehicle.

 

Over 100 years ago, when power generators for motor vehicles were being investigated, there were three routes to follow: steam, electricity and internal combustion. The engineering of the first two was well known and widely used. Internal combustion engines were still being developed. The basic reason that steam (external combustion) engines and electric motors failed to be the motion creators for vehicles was simply the bulk of their method of storing Potential Energy (fuel) and restoring that which had been consumed. Petrol is Potential Energy rich, so a little takes a vehicle a long way. Since it is a liquid, it is easy to replenish.

 

We must also look at the drivers of research. One hundred years ago, nobody thought that fossil fuels would ever run out. Supply to the users was determined by commercial considerations, not political blackmail. The level of knowledge relating to the chemical generation of electricity was low. By the second half of the 20th Century we realised that the amount of fossil fuels was finite, and suffered from the blackmailing actions of politically opposing nations. That was the impetus for research, which has drastically improved our ability to store Potential Energy to produce electricity.

 

Remember the Christmases of your childhood when that shiny battery powered train set needed a handful of bulky D-Cell batteries that ran out of puff before Christmas Dinner? Now look at the miniscule button battery that powers your wrist watch for 12 to 18 months. And how long does it take to charge the 12V battery in your IC-powered car, compared to the time it takes to charge the battery in your mobile phone? We regularly hear of new battery developments that indicate we may soon have a means of increasing the concentration of stored Potential Energy in a battery, as well as a the ability to rapidly restore the depleted energy.

[onetrack]

It's worth reading up on the history of John D Rockefeller, the owner and CEO of Standard Oil, who was one of the most corrupt business leaders ever. His monetary greed was breathtaking and his ruthless business practices - aided by his monstrous wealth and power - set the scene for the destruction of research and advancement of many other energy sources besides oil. 

 

Rockefeller was essentially personally responsible for destroying the electric car industry in the early 1900's, simply because it posed a major threat to his wealth and income from Standard Oil.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I read that Rockefeller actually bought electric car factories and closed them down, but I can't believe that his influence went as far as the rest of the world. I reckon that IC cars were just much better at the time.

But I well remember Grandma duck ( Donald's grandma) had an electric car.

[onetrack]

And Scrooge McDuck had a money bin that was absolutely enormous - and we can only hazard an educated guess, as to exactly who Walt Disney based that representation on.

Reportedly, Scrooge McDuck was based on Andrew Carnegie, but tellingly, Disney comics also produced a "John D Rockerduck" character in the 1960's, whose basis is all too obvious.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by onetrack

[facthunter]

GM has always tried to kill electric power in cars or trains.  It's perfectly natural as it will affect their  profits. People who kept their cars too long were dubbed Anti American.    Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Old K, I don't consider myself a doomsday prepper but I do think we are headed towards problems, hopefully not till my time is well past. But I would just love to go off the grid for electricity. We are here , by necessity, off the grid for water and sewerage, and they are both cheaper than in the town. They should not be, but profits appear to overcome economies of scale. 

With a combination of wind and solar, I reckon going off the grid could be done. But the only guy I knew who did this had his woman leave him...  I never asked why.

There is a bit of the town, out near the airfield, which has 20 acre blocks with no power and no chance of any. I know 2 people who live there off the grid and they seem to like it. My physiotherapist is one of them, and she is a well balanced person.

I'd like to buy a block which is hard against the airfield but the price of $200,000 is putting me off.

[spacesailor]

'' The basic reason that steam (external combustion) engines and electric motors failed to be the motion creators for vehicles was simply the bulk of their method of storing Potential Energy (fuel) and restoring that which had been consumed. Petrol is Potential Energy rich, so a little takes a vehicle a long way. Since it is a liquid, it is easy to replenish. ''

In the UK battery power & steam ! died solely due to the government putting a WEIGHT TAX on vehicles .

I always wonder if People had used a TRAILER to carry those heavy components ( batteries Or water ) could they have beaten the TAX on weight .

NOW that tax is on your LUXURY .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Steam is inefficient due to the Latent heat of Vaporisation  of water and also needs to carry a lot of water with it unless it's a sealed system. the water also has to be pure if possible.. Most boilers have safety issues of some kind or other and a fair bit of skill to operate well to changing power requirements.    Nev

[spacesailor]

I often '' operate one or two to show my grandies how the Old steam power works.

Usually they are hypnotised by the sight of ' Fire & Water ' turning a grind stone and circular saw . Also my ' steam traction engine ' has to be kept out of their way.

Just like when I was flying model aircraft .

spacesailor

 

[old man emu]

 

Steam is inefficient due to the Latent heat of Vaporisation  of water and also needs to carry a lot of water with it unless it's a sealed system. 

 

What about flash boilers? They don't exhaust their steam, do they?

[spacesailor]

Only when it exits the cylinder exhaust !.

From the high pressure ( small ) cylinder , to the medium pressure cylinder , then to the Low pressure ( large ) cylinder , into the condenser  , ( no loss here ) where most But not all is collected as liquid .

Compound steam engines are very efficient  .

spacesailor

[spacesailor]

Just a post-script ! .

' Super steam engines'  can use ' super-heated steam ' . at a pressure of 145 psi and temps of 185 degrees C .

 

It is invisible to the eye ! , & if you put your hand in the steam jet , you Will loose all the flesh , the steam touches . NO Joking with this stuff .

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

You don't recover the heat lost changing the state from liquid to vapour.  Nev

[spacesailor]

Unless you use a '' heat exchanger '' .

So that warm recovered water , heats the cold new water going into the boiler tubes . then it returns ( still warm ) to the water tank

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

Doesn't work space. It's the CHANGE OF STATE  not the warming. Going from liquid  to vapour.  This is the energy of cyclones equal to multiple atom bombs when it's working the other way around heat is given out and the cloud rises. Also consider ENTROPY where the low of heat energy in any system is always to a lower less useable form.  Nev

[old man emu]

On 08/01/2023 at 1:19 PM, facthunter said:

You don't recover the heat lost changing the state from liquid to vapour.  Nev

Theoretically, if you excite molecules by adding heat, you should be able to recover it when the molecules return to their original energy level - Law of Conservation of Energy. The practicality that must be found is how to recover the majority of that energy to start the process again. Would recovering 80% of the energy put into the system initially make a heat engine a viable proposition?