Electric Cars - the discussion continues.

[red750]

Nev, check out this link - https://www.antiquesreporter.com.au/index.cfm/lot/209140-the-mighty-atom-circa-1921-from-little-thingsanother-great-examp/.

[facthunter]

It's a one off Isn't it?. There are plenty of examples of those.. Australia made quite a lot of bikes but you are hard pushed to find much on them. How do facts just disappear?. There was a book By Rob  Saward who I know well. The A to Z of Australian Motorcycles.   Nev

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

A LICENSED Build Japanese Harley was built called a Rikuo

That was the 1200 cc VL flathead Harley. If I remember correctly, the VL had a total loss oil system (no scavenger pump). This became the Japanese military's Type 97. As a solo it as the Type 93.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Back to EVs or not EVs...

 

The ammonia engine is getting a lot of interest on YT:

 

[old man emu]

We still haven't move off Step 1. Energy production to produce fuel. Ammonia production depends on plentiful supplies of energy. Sustainable production is possible by using non-polluting methane pyrolysis or generating hydrogen by water electrolysis with renewable energy sources.

           

 

[onetrack]

Designing and producing an ammonia engine in this day and age is on a par with designing and producing an airbag for a bicycle.

 

Talk about engineering dinosaurs, they will do anything to ensure that IC engines don't die a natural death.

 

Toyota are rapidly becoming the biggest disappointment of the automotive world, they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming, and resisting like a 2 yr old, into the EV era.

[spenaroo]

17 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Gosh, spenaroo, I always thought that a Japanese copy of a Harley was the most reliable... bugger to be wrong huh, those Harley's have really improved I guess.

Harley stuck with pushrod engines for years, fixing the bugs with each update. tended to be evolution (Evo engine) not revolution (Milwaukee engine)

for example the twin cam was used from 1998 to 2017. and used in heavy duty application of police work, and touring bikes.
so they racked up the mileage and had huge dealer and customer feedback.
the main market in the USA is tourers - long distance riders where reliability and comfort matter

when you are effectively selling the same bike each year, it helps to have some upgrades to more then just the paint.
so often improved on the design that were pretty much always bolt into the older motors.
Upgrades was part of the appeal - almost every Harley owner had engine work done at some point.
Harley made more money on parts and accessories then motorcycles - look at the size of the accessories catalogue

The Jap Bikes on the other hand are rarely updated.
once released the models don't get updates till the next model line refresh.
and aren't built to be upgraded or modified.

plus they don't have the support so at some point become disposable
you don't really see 1990's jap cruisers on the road anymore.
but there are still plenty of old Harleys around

[spenaroo]

13 hours ago, old man emu said:

That was the 1200 cc VL flathead Harley. If I remember correctly, the VL had a total loss oil system (no scavenger pump). This became the Japanese military's Type 97. As a solo it as the Type 93.

now if we want to get into the fun build of the era,
Harley-Davidson built a BMW bike, the XA

 

and a dirt bike for the military the MT500

[old man emu]

Trouble is that Harley dealerships won't touch anything earlier than 2000, and by now that cut-off date might have come closer to the present date. Not that it's any different with car makers. There are some parts for my 2005 car that you can't buy from the manufacturer.

[old man emu]

The XA did go into small scale production, but those might be classed as test vehicles. The reason was that the first experience of battlefield use was in North Africa where the sand played havoc with the chain drive.. Apparently the XA was a good machine, but the WLA had a proven engine and transmission and had only required minor changes to the air filter (from mesh to oil bath) and the addition of a blackout lighting system. The WL had been in production since 1938/39, so the manufacturing infrastructure was already in place; it only had to be ramped up.

 

 The MT500 is powered by a 500cc Rotax single-cylinder, air-cooled engine with 4 valves, 5 gears (unit construction), and most were kickstart only. It is not really a Harley designed motorcycle. The basic design started in Italy, before finding its way to Britain, being put into production with the Armstrong-CCM company in 1984. The model saw limited military use in Britain, Jordan, and Canada until it was phased out in 2000.  The reason Harley bought the MT500 to the USA in 1987 was the hope of acquiring a military contract with the richest armed forces on earth.

[spenaroo]

53 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Trouble is that Harley dealerships won't touch anything earlier than 2000, and by now that cut-off date might have come closer to the present date. Not that it's any different with car makers. There are some parts for my 2005 car that you can't buy from the manufacturer.

To be fair its a skills thing, just the natural cycle of brain drain.
most dealership techs are younger guys getting a start in the industry, (age 20-35)
so they haven't played with the carbs and pre EFI diagnostics and tuning.

the factory only provides training for current models

this side of things is best looked after by the independent's. (age 35+)
who are usually former dealership staff who have gone out on their own.
they got all that factory training when the bikes were current

we had the same thing with Ducati.
normally have a good mutually beneficial relationship with each other. 
as we send them all the older bikes, they send us all the newer ones with issues.

its too expensive for them to buy the latest diagnostic software.
but they have more freedom to use aftermarket parts and go outside the normal supply chain etc...

[facthunter]

The accessories enable people to customise their individual bikes which has a lot of appeal. On a Harley the Paint and chrome is Ist class except some of the chrome is on Aluminium that is done sometimes and is a hard ask..  Handle bars are of stainless steel.  with excellent Bends.   Nev

[spenaroo]

Oh definitely.

if you want to see the why a Harley is so expensive look at the oil lines and switch gear.
the lines between the oil tank and engine are either braided or metal tube. and the switch housings are metal not plastic.

they are an agricultural design, but there is minimal plastic on the bikes.

Importantly with accessories is its got the market to support it.
try changing handlebars on a jap cruiser - its an absolute nightmare for 1 reason.
cables, no one does them off the shelf, need it all custom made. and then cut and chop to extend the wiring for the controls. with a Harley you just add in the plug and play extension loom. want cables, comes as a kit - factory supported from 2" to 10" longer.

 

to put into perspective the highest selling non-Harley cruiser in Australia was the Yamaha XV650.
sold from 1998-2019 unchanged (yes still had a carby in 2019, (Yamaha would still sell it here if it had ABS and passed emissions - but they wouldn't spend any money on updating it) and as far as I am aware only had one option for an aftermarket exhaust (Vance and Hines)

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

The Yamaha fetches about 3000$. The market decides. It's NOT a HARLEY.by any measure. It has a fuel pump and dummy tank.  Fairly ordinary chrome. Nev

[spacesailor]

A little off topic .

But

My youngest ' daughter ' is working in a motorcycle shop .

Because she ' knows ' motorcycle's .

Rebuilds all her family race & dirt bikes. 

The baby just won his first trophy. 

spacesailor

[red750]

 

Facebook are running a series of vintage motor cycles. Want to see more?

[willedoo]

12 hours ago, old man emu said:

There are some parts for my 2005 car that you can't buy from the manufacturer.

That hit home recently when I was looking for a power steering hose for my Rodeo and realised there's no Holden dealers anymore. Had to scratch around Repco and Bursons for after market parts. The nearest hose Bursons could find was 2,000klm away in Melbourne. Some of that after market stuff can be a bit dodgy like that hose was.

[Bruce Tuncks]

This really happened 15 years ago in Alice Springs. My commodore had the heat always on, so I saved money by turning the aircon on a bit to balance things out. Well one hot day in October the gas ran out of the aircon, so I drove the car to the big Holden dealers in town. I did feel worried when I saw the maintenance dept executive offices, but I approached the guy on the desk. He told me there could be lots of reasons for my problem, but he could book the car into "diagnostics" in a week's time for $220. ( extra to fix the problem, the "diagnostics" was just to identify the problem.

With tears in my eyes, i then drove to a shed where an independent mechanic worked. He didn't want a bar of the job....  " 3 days work to get the dash off n on and you always bust something" he said.

So, soundly beaten, I drove the hot car home, going past the K-mart at Billygoat Hill. There I bought a manual, since it had this very problem, which I fixed in 5 mins by turning a wire control rod  down near the pedals.

 

One day, I guess that you will not be allowed to touch your own car like this....  it's already true for planes.

[facthunter]

BMC tried to bring THAT in way back..  Nev

[red750]

Indian.  Photos from Vintage Motorcycle Magazine.

 

[facthunter]

It's NOT an Indian. It's an INDIA built ROYAL ENFIELD which till about the mid 50's, was built in Redditch England. Please try and get better sources or you will just perpetuate  rubbish and give me a full time job correcting it.  Nev

[old man emu]

22 hours ago, spenaroo said:

To be fair its a skills thing, just the natural cycle of brain drain.
most dealership techs are younger guys getting a start in the industry, (age 20-35)
so they haven't played with the carbs and pre EFI diagnostics and tuning.

the factory only provides training for current models

this side of things is best looked after by the independent's. (age 35+)

That is a fair comment. Try to get a mechanic to fix a normally aspirated, coil ignition car and they will struggle. Time and technology march on.

 

If you want someone to work on a much older Harley, you need to have a séance.

[old man emu]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

INDIA built ROYAL ENFIELD which till about the mid 50's, was built in Redditch England

Now R.E.s are being manufactured in India from plans and tooling obtained from England. India is producing a lot of Motorcycle stuff, but you have to be very careful. I can get repo cylinders for my WLA, but you have to measure them very carefully because the bores tend to be oval.

[facthunter]

There's other problems with those.  I've not heard of the bores being oval. It's difficult to machine an oval bore. or hone it oval also.. The originals are by far the best till someone makes better 45in barrels. They are OK to .050" oversize.  Nev

[onetrack]

Of course it's an INDIAN!!  It's made in INDIA, isn't it??