Voluntary Euthanasia

[Bruce]

In the wake of the same-sex marriage survey, it has been noticed that there is a big similarity with euthanasia, in that a majority of the public want this but a majority of politicians don't.

 

Is there anybody out there who opposes the idea of voluntary euthanasia, regardless of what safeguards are in place?

 

Maybe opponents are a bit like creationists, of whom I have not found a single one who will argue their case.

 

I hasten to say that although I have had relatives who died after much suffering, none of them would have asked for euthanasia and I reckon it is only a few of us who are potential applicants. But how nasty to deny these few their escape.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Totally agree, Bruce.

 

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if our caring government decide to run a plebecite to see if the majority of Australians want a safely scripted legislation that would permit people to opt for euthanasia?

 

Oh, but wait. We haven't yet seen our caring government actually enact a meaningful law to comply with the majority of Australians who want to permit SSM, have we!

 

 

[nomadpete]

Seriously, when it comes to voluntary euthanasia, there is a big problem facing lawmakers. That is the difficulty of scripting a law to allow those most in need of self chosen euthanasia, without opening the door to misuse by profiteering relatives.

 

There are one or two people in my family that I would be very worried about, if I knew they might find a way to euthenaise me!

 

Bear in mind, I believe that many years ago, it only required two doctors to sign a document in order to get a person certified insane. After which their assets were at risk. (Maybe only in America?). Indeed we don't want anything so simple when euthanasia eventually gets approved here.

 

 

[Bruce]

Pete, the thing is about voluntary euthanasia, not as determined by relatives. I personally think some of my relatives would have been better off if they were involuntarily euthanized, but as you say, this is fraught with the possibility of foul play.

 

There was this guy I knew who had been big in animal welfare. He had clearly made enemies in the RSPCA by protesting at rodeos etc. Well in his latter years, he was successfully prosecuted by the RSPCA for NOT euthanasing his old dog. He hadn't been skimping on vets and care for the dog.

 

At about this time, an auntie was dying in pain. Putting her out of her misery would have been murder. And rightly so, unless she had clearly asked for the euthanasia.

 

 

[octave]

For me, voluntary euthanasia is the ultimate but yet the most basic human right.

 

In 2013 I had an extremely serious and life-threatening event. Up until this time I had always said that I was not afraid of death (although pain and suffering is a different matter). I did think that this could be false bravado and that when it came to it I would be terrified by the idea of death. I was not terrified by the idea of death. Later, after I recovered I was required to go back into hospital for a risky procedure, I was slightly worried that although I coped well the first time, this time I would be more anxious and afraid (a bit like the second solo). I was not. It turns out that I am now immune from the fear of death. Pain an suffering does terrify me but death does not.

 

The opponents of voluntary euthanasia will often say that palliative care can alleviate any suffering. If this is true then legalize voluntary euthanasia but provide the highest levels of palliative care and then almost no one will choose an early death.

 

About 10 years ago my uncle was diagnosed with esophageal cancer at the age of 76. In his end days, he was hospitalised and his wife (my auntie) who was several years older than him was also quite unwell and was also hospitalized in the same hospital. The staff were very caring and put them in the same room. This worked well until my uncle got to the stage where he would scream out in pain that COULD NOT BE ALLEVIATED. My auntie could not stand the anguish of this and had to be moved to another room. She never saw her husband again. After he died she went downhill quickly. She told my parents that she wanted to die. Of course, this was not possible. She eventually secretly stockpiled her pain medication and attempted to overdose. This failed. A few days later when my parents visited her they noticed her face was very badly bruised. The medical staff (who were very good) told them that she wanted to die and had started throwing herself out of bed in an attempt to end her life. Mercifully a few days later she died.

 

I am so glad I live in progressive Victoria where we are making some progress rather than more conservative states.

 

 

[spacesailor]

From memory

 

Austria had euthanasia,

 

before ww2 and what happened there is well documented.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

.

 

From memoryAustria had euthanasia,

 

before ww2 and what happened there is well documented.

 

spacesailor

If it is well documented then why say from memory?

 

some links would be useful.

 

The important word is "voluntary"

 

 

[spacesailor]

On Silberman, Austria and on Re-Writing the History of Autism...

 

Most is lost due to selective reporting, and the more notable German involvement'

 

spacesailor

 

 

[octave]

On Silberman, Austria and on Re-Writing the History of Autism...Most is lost due to selective reporting, and the more notable German involvement'

 

spacesailor

This article seems to be about atrocities committed by the NAZIS, terms like euthanasia without the voluntary part is surely murder. The legislation being proposed is far from that.

 

 

[nomadpete]

My point was, that we need to very clearly differentiate between murder and VOLUNTARY euthenaiseia.

 

 

[Bruce]

The nazis sure gave euthanasia a bad name, but I agree that we are using the wrong word and they were murderers. What they did sure wasn't to voluntary patients.

 

Palliative care works in some places for some things. It didn't work for my father, maybe he wasn't important enough to get the best treatment available. He would have wanted better treatment but certainly not euthanasia.

 

There is another similarity with same-sex-marriage. The percentage who want it is tiny.

 

 

[Marty_d]

There is another similarity with same-sex-marriage. The percentage who want it is tiny.

Sure about that Bruce?

 

We all die some day, and unfortunately some of us will die slowly and in pain, or losing our faculties and wishing we were dead. It's not like SSM where a small proportion of 5-10% of the population are affected - no one gets out of life alive.

 

I think I'd like the option if I were in that situation.

 

 

[Bruce]

I want the option too Marty and I think most people would agree with that.

 

But my experience with people I knew makes me think that only the smartest and bravest would choose euthanasia.

 

I hope I'm one of them if ever in that situation.

 

I have known some for whom palliative care seemed to work ok. They could choose between pain plus awareness or to be zonked out of both.

 

 

[Yenn]

As we get older I think the fear of death recedes, as we know it is inevitable. What remains is the fear of pain and suffering, plus the desire to be seen by our friends and relatives as real people. Not as just a bed ridden body, unable to look after even our most basic needs.

 

Really we want what we insist happens to our pets, such as dogs or horses, that they be put down to avoid suffering.

 

There is one good thing now that wasn't available when I was younger. We can no longer become a criminal by attempting or even achieving suicide.

 

 

[facthunter]

But anybody who helps you to die,(even indirectly) is committing a crime.

 

It's not euthanasia. It's more Voluntary Assisted Dying. Having it a possibility gives people a lot of assurance they will not die in an undignified way, in great pain without being able to see or relate to people at the time of death. Many don't end up doing it but appreciate the option always being available.

 

The Palliative Care industry is profit based, and will behave like all such bodies. In it's own interests. Removing pain is not guaranteed to be effective. I've had massive amounts of Morphine and got little relief (if any). Pain killer's don't work at all for some people and the effect often wears off. There are always side effects. My GP says some don't get pain relief from the usual medications and I'm apparently one of them. Nev

 

 

[kgwilson]

According to a poll taken on 31 August this year 73% of those polled supported voluntary assisted dying. Our politicians are pathetic as they won't put anything on the line if some conservative bigot opposes it. During the debate in the NSW parliament one of these in the form of I think a fundamentalist christian politician called the VAD bill the murderers bill. Well it almost got through. The Dying with Dignity campaign needs to keep the pressure up until it finally gets through. I hope this does not take too much longer.

 

 

[Yenn]

All that needs to be done is to get the media onto this. They are cock a hoop at having a win with gay mariage, so they would put everything into this if they can be convinced.

 

At the moment the media are sitting back, basking in the glory of taking on the overthrow of government policy and winning. Now is the time to start lobbying tha ABC and print media.

 

 

[Bruce]

Nev, you hit on the only good reason I can see against euthanasia, and that is if people would use it during a temporary episode of pain.

 

Preventing people going too soon would have to be one of the safeguards, I'm sure that it would be possible to build this into the law.

 

 

[spacesailor]

With our aging population, if the euthanasia law is passed ( 1st hurdle through),

 

We will have to watch the government don't make it compulsory, aka Logans run (the film)

 

spacesailor

 

 

[nomadpete]

When Huxley wrote 'Brave New World' he foretold your worst fears - compulsory euthanasia combined with recycling - all useful minerals were recovered from the euthenaised. I think he may have also offered a generous cash bonus if the person volunteered to go early. A good incentive that saved the state a lot in health care expenses. And made for a great holiday and party for the departing whilst he was still fit enough to enjoy it

 

 

[facthunter]

You can call the government a murderer if your imagination goes that far, but that's not a REAL consideration of the SITUATION. The changed law allows YOU to decide that YOUR life will be ended when YOU decide YOU have had enough in circumstances you have some control of and assuring some dignity for yourself and people who's company you enjoy, and not die like you would not allow a dog to do..

 

There's a lot of unnecessary (and costly ) medical procedures done on People who will die soon (painfully, often). A friend of mine stopped them amputating a leg of a relative who actually died a week later anyhow. How would that person have survived the operation which had no real chance of prolonging a life?. It merely guaranteed a large fee to the surgeon and anaesthetist. The system knows it's wasting money and causing pain often for no gain and often actual detriment for the patient. THEY know they they have little chance of sustaining life of any quality. They redefine CURE as living perhaps 2 years, but in what circumstances and quality of life?.

 

Even Doctors are wanting to have this control over HOW (and when) THEY die. There's no doubt the Hippocratic oath of doing everything to keep people alive (in simplistic terms ) seems to be in conflict with assisted dying, but today we interfere with the way people die in such a way they can be kept alive almost in a totally vegetative state (brain dead) for a long time. Those who have lost this debate in Victoria, (only in the upper house) intend to make it an issue at the next election and repeal the new legislation which has been watered down to the most restrictive of any in the world, if they get elected. So much for progressive thought. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

Western Sydney voted NO.

 

Now their member of federal parliament, (who she's supposed to represent) is voting YES.

 

Guess who Wont get our vote next election!.

 

FC: My Grandfather was reported shot & killed in that war that ended all wars, but only had his scull removed, the Russian's gave him a nice silver plate for a scull cap.

 

The German's would definitely euthanized him.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[facthunter]

WE are talking about the legislation that passed the senate in Victoria. No other state is affected by that .

 

WA are looking at the results for their consideration. NT had it briefly but over ruled by the Federal LNP government as they are a Territory and the Feds can therefore do that. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

A long life or quality of life? At least the discussion is happening, and not being shut down by religious zealots.

 

Ambulance crew grants palliative patient's final wish to see beach

 

.

 

 

[Bruce]

There is a story about how nazi bigwigs who were sick chose catholic hospitals if they could for the reason space said.

 

But what they were practicing in those nazi hospitals was not voluntary euthanasia, it was involuntary euthanasia, also known as murder.