Bend over. Here it comes again!

[old man emu]

Isn't it great! Now in NSW you can get a refund of 10 cents per drink container. What a return to the Good Old Days when an late afternoon spent collecting discarded drink bottles on the beach produced the money to next week's lollies!

 

Now kids can get money for getting off their bums and getting some bending exercise, and old farts can supplement their cunning-kicks to go flying.

 

The Government is hailing this "Return and Earn Initiative" as a great boost for recycling. I suppose it does improve the rate of recycling these containers, and that's good.

 

However, I have a duty to shout "BOHICA! We are getting screwed again and the Federal Government is 'avin' a larf.

 

I picked up a brochure from my local Woolworths, "What you need to know about the NSW Government's Return & Earn Initiative". The brochure gives an example of why a 24-pack of soft drink cans has gone up in price.

 

1. Original recommended retail price = $20.00 ( incl GST $2.00) (This price is subject to retail market forces)

 

2. Cost of providing for refund** = $2.40 (24 x 10 cents per can)

 

3. Return & Earn Admin fee = $1.18 (24 x $03.54) + GST (Admin fee will vary over time)

 

4. New Price (incl GST) = $23.58

 

**The refund attracts GST, so instead of getting $2.40 per ten cans, you get $2.16

 

There are at least three errors I can find in this published example.

 

A. There are 24 cents in GST unaccounted for in line 2

 

B. My whizz wheel has burned out a bearing trying to calculate how (24 x $03.54) + 0.1(24 x $03.54) = $1.18. I keep getting (24 x $03.54) + 0.1(24 x $03.54) = 93.5 cents. Who is pocketing the remaining 24.5 cents?

 

C. The "New Price" published is based on an already GST'd initial price. So that is a tax on a tax.

 

It costs the consumer, according to these published figures, $3.58 to make $2.16. Further, ignoring the error relating to fee + GST, the Federal Government is making an extra $1.25 on every 24 softdrink cans returned.

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Maybe a good idea to send this one into the SMH

 

 

[old man emu]

One story from Granny SMH: Smashed avo with a side of recycling as container scheme starts seems to be all for the introduction of the scheme.

 

Yet another story tells the economic and employment effects of the scheme:

 

NSW cash-for-cans 'will send us broke'

 

They'll be so accessible, too:

 

Collection Points in major urban areas will be open for at least 35 hours each week, including at least eight hours on the weekend.

 

Regional area Collection Points will be open at least 24 hours each week, including at least eight hours on the weekend.

 

Remote area collection Points will be open at least 16 hours over a fortnight, including at least eight hours on the weekend during the fortnight.

 

Be prepared to queue

 

The local government area of Camden has a population in 2017 of approximately 89,000 plus tourists. The Camden LGA has three collection points, none of which is in the exploding population areas of Oran Park and Gregory Hills.

 

 

[Marty_d]

What are the unseen costs (environmental damage, plastics getting into the ocean food chain, volunteer litter cleanup, etc etc) without the container buy-back?

 

I think it's a good idea. Hell, they already sting you $2 or more for a can of Coke which costs about 2 cents to make (you've been bending over for soft drink manufacturers for decades already). What's another 20c?

 

 

[old man emu]

I don't know about you, but I was putting these recyclable containers in my recycle garbage bin which was collected by the Council and taken to the local recycling centre where the material was sorted and sent off to be reused.

 

The Camden LGA has one of the highest recycling rates in the State, so if you live in Litterbug Central, move out here. The rest of the country seems to be doing it, despite there being a GA airport here.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

What are the unseen costs (environmental damage, plastics getting into the ocean food chain, volunteer litter cleanup, etc etc) without the container buy-back?

I think it's a good idea. Hell, they already sting you $2 or more for a can of Coke which costs about 2 cents to make (you've been bending over for soft drink manufacturers for decades already). What's another 20c?

When I was a young-an, I recall grabbing an empty billie-cart my stepfather made that had quite a carrying capacity and scouring various receptacles and establishments collecting empty soft drink and beer bottles. Once we stacked up a collection, a recycler would come around and pay us some cash for it. It was fantastic. However, I used to envy those in SA (we were in Vic) as there was clearly marked a 5 (or maybe 2) cent refundable deposit on the sof drink bottles in SA. Oh, to get 5c for a bottle!

 

Great idea as bck in the mid - late 70s, recycling was being promoted. I think it was Don Dunstan who was the Premier of SA at the time. I had no idea of politics then, but recall my mother being quite envious he was the premier of SA and not Vic.

 

I don't know about you, but I was putting these recyclable containers in my recycle garbage bin which was collected by the Council and taken to the local recycling centre where the material was sorted and sent off to be reused.

The Camden LGA has one of the highest recycling rates in the State, so if you live in Litterbug Central, move out here. The rest of the country seems to be doing it, despite there being a GA airport here.

All applause for the Camden LGA. When I lived in Aus last (2005), there was a doco on what really happens to those big recycling wheelie-bins. It transpires most of it was sent to land fill as if the bin contained a slightest non-recyclable material (and thin plastic qualified), the machines couldn't sort it and it was too expensive to get someone to do it. As a result a lot (> 50%) was never recycled.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I helped set up recycling in our town in the mid 80s, after our surveys indicated people were happy to sort their recycling into several categories, even three glass bottle colours. It worked well for twenty-odd years, but these days too many people don't give a fig what they shove in the recyclables boxes. Too much out of sight, out of mind...

 

The solution? Bring it home to them (dump their mess on their front lawn) or have everyone work a few shifts sorting useful material from the bloody mess people leave in the "mixed recyclables" boxes.

 

 

[old man emu]

SNAFU

 

1. Disabled Person Unfirendly: No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

 

2. Mint condition cans only: Crushing truth of can recycling scheme

 

3. Too many cans, too few bins: Recycling scheme underwhelms in first month

 

and the list goes on... and on ....

 

 

[Yenn]

I pick up rubbish just about every day when i go for a walk. That is over 2.5km of rural road. Now that the construction of the gas terminal at Gladstone has finished, there is a reduction to about 20% of what it used to be. Now it is about a fertiliser bag full per week. The main rubbish is paper cups and trays from Maccas and similar, then coke and similar cans or plastic drink bottles, followed by paper bags and serviettes and the occasional cigarette packet. In over ten years of doing this I have once had a syringe and a few times disposable nappies.

 

I can't see that the refund on cans is going to make much difference and there are seldom glass bottles.

 

 

[Bruce]

South Australia has had deposits on bottles and cans for many years. I have used this fact to prove that SA is less corrupt than the states without deposits.

 

But I agree with Yenn in that it is cartons and fast-food wrappings that make a lot of the litter.

 

What we need is much higher deposits and on a lot more stuff. Of course the packaging billionaires will be fighting this all the way.

 

 

[old man emu]

What about the in initial sting? I've been buying bottled water during this high heat (and let's not wander off onto the tap water debate). The price of 24 x 600 ml bottles has jumped, and the refund of 10 cents per won't cover the increase.

 

 

[Methusala]

Just back from a week in the Maldives(not $12,00/night but $100). Everyone drinks water from a PET bottle even though there is reticulated water even on a small island. The processed water is supplied by large companies including.... Coca Cola! Label says treatment is "ionised and uV treated". I guess ionised means sodium ion transfer which is very simple to do as is uV treatment. The overall result is that the shoreline is infested with empty discarded containers. Why can't the water be treated centrally then distributed in existing pipe networks to cut out the corporations and provide safe, low cost drinking water according to the original (now corrupted) UN ideals? Whenever governments are involved in social policy these days a camel committee decision results. We need a revolution to rid ourselves of all pervading corporate meddling. Now we have a "recycling" system that is costly to the consumer, profitable to Woolworths and Coca Cola and of dubius value to the environment and thus to the consumer. Good work Gladys, yay!

 

 

[Methusala]

Most of us try to be responsible in recycling discarded packaging ('tho I know at least one bloke who, being very intelligent, distrusts any interference by anybody in his individual free choice of action, so abuses recycling to the point of dumping an unwanted engine into the recycling bin). Down the Federal Highway from us is a small rural block which has had acres of crushed glass dumped and it seems the local council is unable to order it cleared. Glass recycling in Australia has become virtually non-existent for many years so crushed glass has nowhere to go except into landfill. PET is in a similar bind with China reported to have curtailed any receival from Australia now. Could be to do with objections to the mouse that roared, Bishop and Turnbull becoming obstreporus in their shouted objections to Chinese backyard politics. I now place glass containers in the landfill bin rather than risk it being crushed and disposed of inappropriately. Plastic is the next problem. Reduction in selecting this type of packaging is becoming infinitely more difficult.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

What about the in initial sting? I've been buying bottled water during this high heat (and let's not wander off onto the tap water debate)...

Why? And why not?

 

Why have so many people fallen for this colossal con? Paying an immoral foreign corporation exorbitant prices to drink our own water. What's wrong with drinking tap water?

 

Even the latest thin plastic bottles last for yonks when I refill them with tap water.

 

 

[facthunter]

Invariably meeting WHO standards involves chlorine to kill bacteria. Great way to get bladder cancer. Nev

 

 

[octave]

Invariably meeting WHO standards involves chlorine to kill bacteria. Great way to get bladder cancer. Nev

On the balance of the evidence, I personally am more than happy to drink chlorinated water or swim in a pool

 

Chlorine and cancer-cancer myth - Cancer Council Western AustraliaChlorine and cancer-cancer myth - Cancer Council Western Australia

 

 

[Methusala]

uV light used in Canberra's water supply for disinfection of raw water. Chlorine added at the end in minute qty to guard against any infection from insolation in underground distribution mains. uV used in many swimming pools.

 

 

[facthunter]

There's other things that may cause it Red. Like processed meats (nitrates).

 

Sure Chlorine, One of the 4 halides which are generally some of the most reactive substances about, KILLS bacteria and other organisms but is not harmful to humans at all. How unlikely is that? Pull the other leg.. You can smell it in a lot of drinking water and on yourself after swimming in most council pools. SAFE levels of contaminants are constantly being revised DOWN. It might be better than dying of dengue fever, cholera or something in some 3rd world country. .Nev.

 

 

[Bruce]

Yep, we need to apply the "least worse" idea more often. For example, if you prevent an old guy from flying for safety reasons, you are likely doing more harm than good. If that old guy was keeping himself fit and active by flying, then for sure there are the risks of flying but the reduction in other risks more than compensates. By about 6 times.

 

Getting back to drinking water....

 

I know 2 people who suffered terrible diseases from drinking non-treated water. One got his disease in Indonesia, the other from drinking tank water from a farm in Australia. Chlorine would be the least worst if you compared chlorine with no chlorine.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes but it amounts to compulsory medication, like Fluoride which can also have harmful effects in excessive quantities. Only a small % of water is actually drunk so we treat a lot unnecessarily and it all ends up in waterways and soil. I've had brass parts in Taps just fall to pieces because of chlorine being added and copper pipes corroded internally. THAT ends up in your water also. I can see the position the authorities are in. I discussed this with My DAME many years ago as we had some of the best water around in the local area. Soft as, and no unpleasant taste. Water from your roof can be a problem too. Some migratory birds carry disease that can be life threatening.. You are not advised to rescue some that appear to be injured without due care..Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I will not drink reticulated water if I can help it. Been drinking tank water off the roof for 48 years in the two houses I have owned and before that I drank water of the caravan annexe roof for about 4 years. Never copped any disease and it tastes much better.

 

Years ago the reticulated water in Gladstone was not fit to drink and the Aluminium refinery used to distribute de mineralised water to its employees. Now tap water is safe to drink, but doesn't taste good, so people buy it in bottles at greater than the cost of petrol. They whinge about the high cost of petrol!

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes but petrol tastes really bad. Don't birds Poop on your roof and frogs die and fall in the tank? Have a good new year Yenn. and keep flying that wooden tailwheel thingy because you CAN. as well as that haR V turf banger. Nev

 

 

[Methusala]

Again, relying on memory of an ABC interview with Sir Frank McFarlane Burnett. He said that basically cancer is a result of failure of the immune system to identify and deal with abnormal cells. Cells mutate as a normal part of reproduction. Of course there are agents which greatly promote the mutation of cells. These are called mutagens. The common saw that,"Everything causes cancer", is true to a point but it's the rate of mutation which increases the chances of contracting cancer. I agree that there are compromises where the ill effects of avoiding traces of toxins can be worse than the alternative. Don

 

 

[Marty_d]

It's a lottery, like getting pregnant (or getting someone pregnant).

If you can get pregnant yourself, you're not likely to get anyone else pregnant. Or vice versa...

 

But seriously.

 

Despite OME's request not to go down the bottled vs tap water debate, I'm going there. I'm sitting in Tullamarine airport at the moment waiting for our flight to Hobart.

 

So going from international to domestic, naturally we have to go through security, which means emptying our water bottles. Get through security and you're in the food court of terminal 1, where if you want water, either you go to the toilets and get it from the tap, or you pay - wait for it - $7 per litre for bottled.

 

Even Changi airport in Singapore had free potable water located in the lounges. But here in a supposed advanced society we don't provide it?

 

Capitalism gone mad. Charge silly amounts for fizzy drinks if you want, but piped drinking water should be freely available in all public areas.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Welcome home Marty.