old man emu Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 Being retired, I'm always on the lookout for ways and means to earn a few extra shekels to supplement a fixed income. I thought I had a good idea that would enable me to pass on my experience to the younger generation. Here's how the idea came to me: Learner drivers are required to have 120 hours driving experience before they apply for a licence test. Parents are often too busy keeping the family going, and allocating time to each of their childrens' activity needs to give over such a huge block of time to one child. A driving lesson with a professional costs about $65 per hour. I've got plenty of free time. I have nearly 50 years driving experience. I was a Highway Patrol officer, so was trained to drive at the Police Driver Training School to a higher standard than General Duties Police, and the public in general. I am certified in traffic accident reconstruction, having completed my training in one of the best schools in the USA. I was involved in traffic law enforcement for nearly thirty years. I hold a "Working with Children" clearance, and a Public Vehicle Driver's Authority. With all of the above, I thought that I could hire myself out to enable learner drivers clock up their hours in their parents' cars. I figured $20 - $25 per hour would be a reasonable price for this service. But here's the rub. In order to provide driving instruct other persons for a fee, one must have a driving Instructor's licence You can only apply for a Driving Instructor's licence if: You're at least 21 years old OK You've held a full driver licence (not learner, provisional, probationary or restricted) of the relevant class for at least three years during the four-year period immediately prior to your application for an instructor's licence OK You've been authorised by Roads and Maritime Services to undertake an approved course in driving instruction, and have passed. Haven't got it You’ve been provided with a Working with Children Check number for employment purposes. OK The approved course in driving instruction is the Certificate IV in Transport and Logistics (Road Transport - Car Driving Instruction) TLI41210 or TLI41216 . (A certificate IV course is the level that your an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (not as high as a LAME) has to pass to complete the theory side of an apprenticeship.) This is a typical Course Cost Theory $750 Practical $75 per hour Full Assessments $200 each and Partial re-assessments $100 each. The average student will expect to pay approximately $3,200 based on 30 hours of practical training. Who has the spare cash, which would amount to about $5000 by the time all government fees were paid, to do this for a brick and hour? The irony of all this is that an untrained person with a minimum of three years driving experience (just off green P's), and no knowledge of the intricacies of the Road/Vehicle/Driver mix can take an ab initio learner driver all the way through the 120 hours, if the untrained person is not given a fee or other form of remuneration. A further irony is that there is an local organisation that supplies cars and unpaid licensed driver to learners for the very purpose I proposed. Another good idea tossed on the scrap heap due to bureaucracy.
Marty_d Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 Being retired, I'm always on the lookout for ways and means to earn a few extra shekels to supplement a fixed income. I thought I had a good idea that would enable me to pass on my experience to the younger generation. Here's how the idea came to me: Learner drivers are required to have 120 hours driving experience before they apply for a licence test. Parents are often too busy keeping the family going, and allocating time to each of their childrens' activity needs to give over such a huge block of time to one child. A driving lesson with a professional costs about $65 per hour. I've got plenty of free time. I have nearly 50 years driving experience. I was a Highway Patrol officer, so was trained to drive at the Police Driver Training School to a higher standard than General Duties Police, and the public in general. I am certified in traffic accident reconstruction, having completed my training in one of the best schools in the USA. I was involved in traffic law enforcement for nearly thirty years. I hold a "Working with Children" clearance, and a Public Vehicle Driver's Authority. With all of the above, I thought that I could hire myself out to enable learner drivers clock up their hours in their parents' cars. I figured $20 - $25 per hour would be a reasonable price for this service. But here's the rub. In order to provide driving instruct other persons for a fee, one must have a driving Instructor's licence You can only apply for a Driving Instructor's licence if: You're at least 21 years old OK You've held a full driver licence (not learner, provisional, probationary or restricted) of the relevant class for at least three years during the four-year period immediately prior to your application for an instructor's licence OK You've been authorised by Roads and Maritime Services to undertake an approved course in driving instruction, and have passed. Haven't got it You’ve been provided with a Working with Children Check number for employment purposes. OK The approved course in driving instruction is the Certificate IV in Transport and Logistics (Road Transport - Car Driving Instruction) TLI41210 or TLI41216 . (A certificate IV course is the level that your an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (not as high as a LAME) has to pass to complete the theory side of an apprenticeship.) This is a typical Course Cost Theory $750 Practical $75 per hour Full Assessments $200 each and Partial re-assessments $100 each. The average student will expect to pay approximately $3,200 based on 30 hours of practical training. Who has the spare cash, which would amount to about $5000 by the time all government fees were paid, to do this for a brick and hour? The irony of all this is that an untrained person with a minimum of three years driving experience (just off green P's), and no knowledge of the intricacies of the Road/Vehicle/Driver mix can take an ab initio learner driver all the way through the 120 hours, if the untrained person is not given a fee or other form of remuneration. A further irony is that there is an local organisation that supplies cars and unpaid licensed driver to learners for the very purpose I proposed. Another good idea tossed on the scrap heap due to bureaucracy. Good idea still. Maybe you could contact your local MP and bend their ear about changing the legislation to enable the sort of "child driver care" you're thinking of. Or, just do it on the quiet and let the parents know that if they tell anyone, the ride is over.
Yenn Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 As usual bullish... to the fore. I have seen some of these driving instructors drive and they don’t impress me, but being Australia you need permission to do anything.
spacesailor Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 I have taught over one thousand people to drive !, but had a very hard and long trip getting my own license (16 years), I use to sell motor-scooter's to the Junior Doctors & nurses at the local teaching hospital, (sold like hot-cakes). Wouldn't think of getting paid for it. spacesailor
old man emu Posted January 5, 2018 Author Posted January 5, 2018 I have taught over one thousand people to drive. Wouldn't think of getting paid for it. spacesailor You'll think about it when you are retired and find that you Super won't last more than 5 years.
spacesailor Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 Retired, I was out of the work-force at fifty, twenty-five years ago. Super!, the biggest-bullssht ever, you pay your Taxes & the government pays itself more every year. I only had weeks paying Super, so am on a pension,$7.60 per hour, over a forty hour week. spacesailor
Old Koreelah Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 Being retired, I'm always on the lookout for ways and means to earn a few extra shekels to supplement a fixed income. I thought I had a good idea that would enable me to pass on my experience to the younger generation. Here's how the idea came to me: Learner drivers are required to have 120 hours driving experience before they apply for a licence test. Parents are often too busy keeping the family going, and allocating time to each of their childrens' activity needs to give over such a huge block of time to one child. A driving lesson with a professional costs about $65 per hour. I've got plenty of free time. I have nearly 50 years driving experience. I was a Highway Patrol officer, so was trained to drive at the Police Driver Training School to a higher standard than General Duties Police, and the public in general. I am certified in traffic accident reconstruction, having completed my training in one of the best schools in the USA. I was involved in traffic law enforcement for nearly thirty years. I hold a "Working with Children" clearance, and a Public Vehicle Driver's Authority. With all of the above, I thought that I could hire myself out to enable learner drivers clock up their hours in their parents' cars. I figured $20 - $25 per hour would be a reasonable price for this service. But here's the rub. In order to provide driving instruct other persons for a fee, one must have a driving Instructor's licence You can only apply for a Driving Instructor's licence if: You're at least 21 years old OK You've held a full driver licence (not learner, provisional, probationary or restricted) of the relevant class for at least three years during the four-year period immediately prior to your application for an instructor's licence OK You've been authorised by Roads and Maritime Services to undertake an approved course in driving instruction, and have passed. Haven't got it You’ve been provided with a Working with Children Check number for employment purposes. OK The approved course in driving instruction is the Certificate IV in Transport and Logistics (Road Transport - Car Driving Instruction) TLI41210 or TLI41216 . (A certificate IV course is the level that your an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (not as high as a LAME) has to pass to complete the theory side of an apprenticeship.) This is a typical Course Cost Theory $750 Practical $75 per hour Full Assessments $200 each and Partial re-assessments $100 each. The average student will expect to pay approximately $3,200 based on 30 hours of practical training. Who has the spare cash, which would amount to about $5000 by the time all government fees were paid, to do this for a brick and hour? The irony of all this is that an untrained person with a minimum of three years driving experience (just off green P's), and no knowledge of the intricacies of the Road/Vehicle/Driver mix can take an ab initio learner driver all the way through the 120 hours, if the untrained person is not given a fee or other form of remuneration. A further irony is that there is an local organisation that supplies cars and unpaid licensed driver to learners for the very purpose I proposed. Another good idea tossed on the scrap heap due to bureaucracy. Depressingly common story, OME. The retraining industry, like most guilds, tries to protect its patch. My wife has decades of experience in swimming training. She has achieved her qualification the hard way. Although based in a small country town, she's travelled enough to coach Olympic gold medalists and officiate at international events. Despite this wealth of experience, each year she has to battle to be allowed to teach people (of any age) to swim. The cost of regular re-certification seems to be priced at city coaching rates. Most years she spends more on the recertification than she charges in coaching fees.
Marty_d Posted January 5, 2018 Posted January 5, 2018 But here's the rub. In order to provide driving instruct other persons for a fee, one must have a driving Instructor's licence You're not instructing. You are a companion for the learner. Nothing more. Not one word of instruction shall you utter. In fact, call yourself an Au Pair, whose only job is looking after the child while they're driving the car.
old man emu Posted January 6, 2018 Author Posted January 6, 2018 Actually, the correct term for what a fully licensed driver is doing is "supervising", and this is what Clause 16 Road Transport (Driver Licensing) Regulation 2008 says: 16. Responsibility of person supervising holder of learner licence (cf cl 12 (5) 1999 Reg) A person accompanying a learner in a vehicle being driven by the learner on a road or road related area (other than a person submitting the learner to a driving test for any of the purposes of this Regulation) must: (a) supervise the learner with respect to the driving of the vehicle, and (b) take all reasonable precautions to prevent a contravention of the road transport legislation Definition of "supervise" Observe and direct the execution of (a task or activity) 1.1 Observe and direct the work of (someone 1.2 Keep watch over (someone) in the interest of their or others' security So I suppose that in directing the execution of a task, one could offer advice and guidance on a better way to carry out a task than the way the learner originally carried out the task.
old man emu Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 Gotta love this website! After I posted #9, I had to go do some driving, so had some time to think. (I was on a freeway at 10.30 pm on a Saturday night). I realised that in order to answer Maty_d's #8 post, I had had to do some research. As a result, I found a solution to my problem. Offer a service as a learner driver "supervisor". I can suggest that the learner purchase a copy of the "Roadcraft Manual", read a lesson, and then I could supervise the learner in the execution of an activity described in the book. Without the input of you blokes, I would have missed this loophole. Thanks
Jerry_Atrick Posted January 9, 2018 Posted January 9, 2018 Just about applies to all forms of activities - general and sports aviation, anyone?
Bruce Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 I just read a good story about how the first colony city on the moon operated. It belonged to Kenya...Why? because Kenya offered a deregulated environment in which things could happen without being stopped by "safety " bureaucracy. So several big companies moved there . Jabiru has a better go at being innovative in South Africa than they do here, look at the two engined plane as an example. And medically, it is already cheaper to go overseas to escape our over-regulated and litigation-hampered situation here. Gosh we could go ahead if only people could really choose to do things at their own risk.
spacesailor Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 Bruce "Gosh we could go ahead if only people could really choose to do things at their own risk." GREAT. Can I bring my Hummel to your place, Just to See if I could fly it. Many thanks in advance.[ATTACH]49199._xfImport[/ATTACH] spacesailor
facthunter Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 The original saying credited to Bernard Shaw( I believe) is "those who CAN do, and those who can't, teach. I'm not sure it's entirely correct. IF you can't fly an aeroplane keep it to your self and don't carry passengers. . IF you instruct it will show. Your student must have confidence in YOU and you must be able to fly the plane out of the situations the student sometimes gets you into .You have to allow more latitude than normal or they will never learn much. If you are nervous they have a right to be also. Nev
spacesailor Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 FH Different instructors get different results off the same student, I really enjoyed my lessons with instructor "a" but coward & unsure of myself with instructor "B" . Instructor B is the one who issues your pass. So do I stay & enjoy my time in the air with instructor A, with no chance of a pass, or just spend the money on a round the world trip. And give up the dream I had since a 14 year old. spacesailor[ATTACH]49200._xfImport[/ATTACH]
Bruce Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Space, you are real welcome to bring your Hummelbird to my place. Is that you in the pic? You look happy and the plane looks good, but it will need wings. I have a 550 m strip, just right for a Hummelbird with wings and a happy well-trained pilot. I'm sure you wouldn't risk crashing for something as simple as missing out on flying lessons, and that is my point. You are the best person to know what you want to do, not some bureaucrat.
facthunter Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Spacey there's a lot in this . It can get complex. I had one bloke I couldn't get anywhere with, even after 15 hours of intense revision that he was required to do by he authority..... That was disappointing for me but I don't think he got anywhere anyhow. He would go OK then just throw it away in a tight spot.. I've seen this happen with a few (say 4) Pilots. so that's not a lot over the years. If the test PASS standard is "would you allow your wife and kids to go with this bloke/.lassie"? the decision is clear NO!. If He /She doesn't carry passengers and fly's only in calm conditions etc you use your judgement but must still be concerned. If the pilot's training has been thorough, well explained and covered HE SHE should be more confident knowing that it's extensive and well understood. "Greasers" are taken too much notice of . Well controlled, managed and safe consistent FAQ, is a better performance to put in. As to your situation, It would be a shame to give up a dream like that. The Hummel won't be the easiest plane to fly. Is it Tailwheel? What do you normally fly? Nev
spacesailor Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Bruce I would be scared shiiiitless when the Hummel gets to take-off speed!, LoL As a very low training hour & No solo I would be foolish to think I'm a good "Test-Pilot" for an unflown aircraft. FH I think I have closer to thirty hour's with the same instructor, who said a couple of times he thought I could go solo, ( probably lost confidence at that stage), Did a couple of extended flights just to mix up the monotony of the Circuits. Nothing noted on those flights about my wasting instructors time & my money or not allowing for wind drift etc. One instructor gave me confidence, the other took it away big time,( completely bewildered by him). Also most extra things like "daily inspection" refueling, preflight, radio, etc,. never noted in the log, ( unaware I should have done anything about what goes in the book) PS has training wheel on front, but will be taildragger, if I could have got that far, (only plane I know that can be BOTH). The wings are hanging about behind the plane. spacesailor
Jerry_Atrick Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 I had a GFPT when I left Aus - should have had more, but got hooked on doing aeros in the coldstream training area, which was big enough to pootle about in anyway. After an extended hiatus, decided to get back into flying and thought to myself, I know how to navigate, can fly and can do aeros as well (albeit in a C15x - though taught great energy management)I found the cheapest school as I thought no big deal, dust teh cobwebs down while I do the theory and then voila! Turned up at the school (which made a dilapted outhouse look the height of luxury) and assigned an instructor that didn't gel with me and had a coarse method. As the CAA, after examining my logbook, decreed all I had to do was sti the theory exams (and radiotelephony prac) and pass the flight test, I thought no big deal if the instructor and I don't gel as all I have to do is get into practice - she'll be right, mate - so I persisted because it was a darn sight cheaper than other places. Well, it didn't quite go to plan. Week after week, I regressed in my flying making more an more silly mistakes and feeling more and more anxious about the whole thing. Coupled with a rather nasty aerdrome flight information officer who loved nothing more than berating low time students, I was decidedly disliking flying and my confidence was plummetting faster than a stalled brick. My instructor cottoned on and then offered to allow me to go solo! I though WTF! I can barely open the door of the plane now, and he is ready to unleash me on an unsuspecting public. I politely declined and drove home, angry, upset, despondent and had decided to give up flying. When I was doing the self-pity thing to my wife and declared I am giving up flying (something I thought she would eagely accept as she hates any form of flying - event he silver cylinders in the sky), she looked at me sternly and very assertively told me it was not the right thing to do and that maybe try another school It sort of shook sense into me. I thought about it and arranged a TIF at a school on a more convenient airfield. It also was at the most expensive end of the flying training spectrum. The first lesson started with thorough briefing and info gathering - detailed examination of my log book then getting me to tell them what I had done before; why I think the previous school didn't work for me, etc. We then embarked the immaculate PA28, which compared to the tatty old fart-carts the other school had, was like one's fist foray into a Bentley (I assume - never been on one). The intructor just told me to go flying (and where to point the nose); apart from that, he kept relatively quiet. It was a dream to move to an aircraft tha didn't require flaps to climb on a mildly warm day (about 22c) compared to the previous school. He asked me to to the usual upper air work - climb, descend, medium-level and steep turns; calmly pointing out some bad habits, but generally letting me get on with it. We then tried S&L power off stalls (they call it a number 1 stall here). One the climb out, I gave it full power but the bloomin thing wasn't climbing terribly well. I checked all the instruments and everything looked OK - RPM, temps/pressure, etc. Checked the carb heat was off, too. Then it clicked - "Ahh", I said over the intercom, "Better get these flaps up". The instructor (a young bloke) smiled and nodded before saying he was going to leave it a few more seconds before pointing it out to me. Never have made that mistake since ;-) He jotted lots of notes during the flight and when we returned, it was a thorough debrief (you pay for the instructor time in brief and debrief here, but it was worth every penny). After that one lesson, my confidence returned and it would be six or seven lessons before I was ready to take the test. The weather, however, was incredibly frustrating and I ended up doing a few more solos before I could actually get my test in. Amazingly, I hadn't done the following for the award of the GFPT nor the PPL: - Diversions - Short field take-off/landings - Low flying/precautionary landings When I was asked to perform each manouvre in the test, I confessed to the examiner that I had not covered these elements and that I would for the first time apply practice to the theory. He did brief me on the short field landing technique and said I had two goes at it. The first was a little messy, but deemed acceptable. After the end of teh test (I passed), the debrief was bacially to practice the diversions. Moral of the long winded story - apart from the servicibility of the a/c, the instructor is probably the most important part of training regardless of how experienced one is. If it's mot working with the instructor, find another one.
Bruce Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 Great story Jerry. There are good instructors out there and some terrible ones.Some of the bad ones are just using the hours to move onto other things. Space, I agree with Nev, it would be a shame to give up too soon.
Bruce Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 It sure is important to get type-specific training. This guy at Gawler didn't and those who saw his first flight in his new sleek glass plane thought he was going to die. He was fine with the new plane when he got used to the different handling compared to his old Gazelle. Of course if your new plane is a single seater, you can't do this completely but have to settle for as near as you can get. And yes, the test flight of the new plane needs to be done with an experienced test pilot who is current on type. Don't hurry this either, not long ago we saw such a flight end badly when the volkswagen engine lost power at 300 feet on climbout.
old man emu Posted January 26, 2018 Author Posted January 26, 2018 This is Post #23 of this thread. This is post # 13 of this thread and marks the point where it went off topic. I just read a good story about how the first colony city on the moon operated.It belonged to Kenya...Why? because Kenya offered a deregulated environment in which things could happen without being stopped by "safety " bureaucracy. So several big companies moved there . Jabiru has a better go at being innovative in South Africa than they do here, look at the two engined plane as an example. And medically, it is already cheaper to go overseas to escape our over-regulated and litigation-hampered situation here. Gosh we could go ahead if only people could really choose to do things at their own risk. Can we return to the original topic, please?
coljones Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 I just read a good story about how the first colony city on the moon operated.It belonged to Kenya...Why? because Kenya offered a deregulated environment in which things could happen without being stopped by "safety " bureaucracy. So several big companies moved there . Jabiru has a better go at being innovative in South Africa than they do here, look at the two engined plane as an example. And medically, it is already cheaper to go overseas to escape our over-regulated and litigation-hampered situation here. Gosh we could go ahead if only people could really choose to do things at their own risk. Or you could work in illegal sweat shops with zero safety at slave labour pay in Australia, working for a BMW driving Young Liberal hounding you back to work with threats of dobbing the workers into social security or immigration or both.
facthunter Posted January 27, 2018 Posted January 27, 2018 Well put Col. Anyhow if we are going to return to topic I will just add (for Spacey) that NO instructor should be rude, or indulge in PUT DOWNS. Some will do that but they should be out of the GAME You are PAYING and you don't pay for that. There's some BIG egos in the flying scene. Now I don't set out to be easy, (or too hard) on someone if they are not at the right performance level. but you have to be dealt the facts. The Instructor can be your "FRIEND" after the training has progressed beyond basic . Don't go for the one who is "NICE " but won't push you to get the standard as high as needed. It should NOT be any sort of competition between you and HIM/HER. It's more a BLOKEY thing so perhaps HER on less occasions . Practice things like figure 8's (with the right power changes) and steep gliding turns. side slipping etc till you are more relaxed by knowing you can do them well. .Nev
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