Men -v- Women in the Workplace

[Yenn]

All that is happening so far seems to be, some well known personalities are being accused of misconduct.

 

So what. We all know that sort of thing could go on, but those personalities have little recourse to clearing their name. If they are innocent they could take the accusers to court, but how would they ever win the case?

 

I consider they are innocent until proven guilty.

 

As for allowing double jeopardy, ie taking a case to court twice, that only allows the police to take a case to court with not enough evidence and then to try again if they fail.

 

 

[old man emu]

We have pretty strong defamation laws here, and it is also a criminal offence to "falsely accuse on an indictable offence". However, women are running 'offences against women' empire, and it was, in my time, prohibited to charge a female for making a false report of an offence involving her and a male. I suppose that nowadays, I should say "her and another person with whom the complainant has a relationship.", cause girls fight each other, too.

 

 

[coljones]

We have pretty strong defamation laws here, and it is also a criminal offence to "falsely accuse on an indictable offence". However, women are running 'offences against women' empire, and it was, in my time, prohibited to charge a female for making a false report of an offence involving her and a male. I suppose that nowadays, I should say "her and another person with whom the complainant has a relationship.", cause girls fight each other, too.

And in the olden days it was known that the male would take the female out and belt her til she told "the truth" or for the sergeant told her to go back to the offender as a domestic causes too much paperwork. Yes, there are women who prey on men but the domestic violence and assault visited on women is much more prevalent and unreported.

 

 

[Marty_d]

You'd have to ask yourself WHY a victim would stick up their hand and accuse a high profile person - knowing that they're going to face career damage, skepticism, online abuse, reveal extremely personal details about the event and eventually face the scary prospect of a court case.

 

Ok, there might be one or two people in a million who will value the media attention over all these negatives.

 

But now you have at least 5 people who worked with the guy reporting sexual misconduct.

 

I'm not saying he's guilty, because he hasn't been charged and convicted. All I'm saying is, there's a lot of negatives to standing up and making the accusation, so perhaps we should acknowledge that you'd need a fairly good motivation for doing so.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

We have pretty strong defamation laws here, and it is also a criminal offence to "falsely accuse on an indictable offence". However, women are running 'offences against women' empire, and it was, in my time, prohibited to charge a female for making a false report of an offence involving her and a male. I suppose that nowadays, I should say "her and another person with whom the complainant has a relationship.", cause girls fight each other, too.

I'm not too sure about how old you are, but I am guessing "in my time" means more moons ago that one would like to admit (it does in my case!). So, PC has been around a lot longer than recent times. @coljones is correct about the gender imbalance with respect to assault and violence (although, ironically, my cousin was beat up by his then wife - true story).

 

However, it irks me either way when such favourable treatment occurs - it means that an executive rather than democtratic decision is taken that some are more fairly treated than others in the eyes of the law (yes, I know I am an aspirationalist and that there are many areas where inequality of the law prevails).

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I repeat my mantra....Who stands to gain the money...??? Yes it is wrong, but 4 years, please....lets jump on the bandwagon...money. Sexual or any other type of harrassment is never acceptable, albeit male to female or female to male (or to those who care....one gender neutral to another gender neutral...lol).

As I mentioned in my example, the victim despite being an assertive, confident and accomplished professional who had nothing to lose was fearful of bringing such a complaint because of potential reprisals and the adverse impact it could have on her career in a relatively closed shop industry. It was actually on our encouragement that she plucked up the courage to make the complaint and then wanted (or needed) someone to attend the interviews with her for moral support (which I can honestly say, is not in itself an easy thing to do). In her first interview, an early question is what she is hoping to gain from making the complaint. At this stage I had to intervene and comment that someone has made a sexual harassment complaint - not a compo claim - and that the event had caused her great anguish and huniliation in front of fellow employees. The question was bang out of order but shows a culture of a perception that people are only in it for the money. Well, her response was a dignfied confused look followed by words to the effect his behaviour recognised for what it was, he pulled up for it and appropriate discilinary action taken as if he had committed the actions on youger women less able to defend themselvles, the combination of not wanting to destroy their career nor their physical capacity to fend off the advances could have far more devastating.

 

That was a relatively minor case where it was mainly verbal abuse accompanied by a minor push - so no physical sexual activity. Now, think about where it is also physical - and the intense psychological damage it does to the victim such they can barely leave the house, destroys their relationship, etc. And the real fear of reprisals as well as having to face gruelling investigations, possibly physical examinations and re-live the horror again (something they have probably have done over and over again thethe immediate aftermath). Let's not forget, sexual harassment of this nature is no different in terms of rape or sexual assault, except it is aggravated usually by the threat of destroying ones career (or at least hampering their progress)... In other words it is rapee/sexual assault accompanuied by bullyism. It takes a lot of gumption, determination and guts to come forward straight away or at all without the moral support of others. Ever thought why a lot of accusations come posthumousy? May be because the assailed may thinkthey are somewhat protected in that there can be no direct reprisal from the perpetrator.

 

And, given the work context of harrasment (of any form) if it is systemic and/or has been covered up, has resulted in suffering and pain as a result of work, why shouldn't the victim be able to receive compensation as per any other workers comp or bullying claim?

 

 

[nomadpete]

My gripe is that ALL media and political focus is on misconduct against females by males. Whilst I agree that most domestic violence and most sexual misconduct is of that type, there is zero support for males who have suffered at the hands of females. To the point of ridicule. I have seen stats that revealed that one in four domestic violence deaths are males. Where is the outcry about that? I have been a victim of DV. And before anyone here tries to say "so what did you do to make that happen?" Or "Why didn't you stop her?", just think how your local coppers will treat you if you attempt to make a complaint. Trivialisation, ridicule. And see how fast you end up arrested for assault if you try to defend yourself. I have met men who have had major problems as a result of attempting to stop an enraged partner from punching and kicking them. The assumption is always that the male somehow deserved or caused the assault.

 

In my case, I actually told my colleagues why I was black and blue with bruises. Later (on the quiet) a surprising number of men confided in me about instances of violence by females. They were too ashamed to speak out about it for fear of ridicule.

 

I am against all violence and victimisation. But our society and legal system is very very biased against males.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

@nomadpete - sorry to hear of your experiences and hope it never happens again. You are absolutely right in that it is much more difficult for a male who has been subject to domestic violence by a female to come forward and be treated seriously and the default position is that the man must have done something to provoke the attack. Which is why I am all for equality of the law; no assumptions as to what the truth is of a complaint and it should be investigated. On the 1 in 4 statistic, is that adjusted for the slow-burning fuse case (where the female or male has been subjected to constant physical and/or verbal abuse over long periods of time by the partners they have killed - my guess it is more readily able to be determined for female accused)?

 

 

[nomadpete]

I believe the 1 in 4 was a direct statistic. I don't think anyone has been able to estimate (for instance) how many men top themselves as a result of long term abuse (whether physical or psychological). I suspect serious depression is common in a victim when they feel cut off from all support, and have added depression from peer ridicule. For males presently in such situations, it sounds a lot like the post war battered housewives where police and society turned their backs on victims.

 

Times have changed for the better. But only for females.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

From thi forum, we can conclude:

 

• Both men and women can be abusive, threatening, manipulative and mailicious towards each other
   
  
• There are periods where the law (or administrators/enforcers of the law) will side more with one than the other.
   
  
• The stereotype is not necessarily true
   
  
• It happens more than we think - not sure it's endemic - but problematic - on both sides of the fence (esp. taking into account psychological abuse).
   
  

 

 

Of course, we have no full stats picture (though the 1/4 DV deaths to men is one), but for the sake of time - let's say the anecdotal evidence is not far from the statistical truth (in economist speak, lets make an assumption).

 

From a lot of what has been posted in this thread, it is surprising there is any form of heterosexuality left! Ah well, one of the things that may provide salvation is more for the "In the Future" thread, where I forgot to mention than even, let's call it "intimate" robotics, is starting to become big business. So if your looking for investments of the future, put your money on winning firms that make these artifical men and women without the phsychological issues and I will put my money into artifical insemination clinics. I just hope those robots can cook!

 

One of the key tenets I am trying to teach my children is that take your time to pick the right parther for you - don't be pressurised by someone, society or yourself to accept a lifelong partner that is not largely compatibale at every level with you - or has the tolerance and flexibility to allow and support you to pursue what you want (and you have that same back for him/her). From experience, I was smitten with an extremely attractive young lady and we became an item. Most people couldn't believe I was able to land a catch like that - so it wasn't clearly simply beauty in the eye of the beholder. At a pub, a bloke started flirting with her and she said she was spoken for, pointing at me. His response: "luv, you can do a LOT better than that!". True!

 

It wasn't too long before, despite her appearances not changing, she was too ugly a person for me to even look at. And that's when I had to finally admit to myself that I was pressurising myself to make something of someone with whom I (and a few others, it appears) was not meant to be. If we get our partners right, then the occurences of abise should diminish (sadly, as per this lady last time our paths crossed, there will be some that will not find partnership - but that is not always a bad thing).

 

In conext of the OP, handling this at work is an entirely different matter.

 

 

[coljones]

Catholic Archbishop Blames Disobedient Wives For Domestic Violence

[old man emu]

Catholic Archbishop Blames Disobedient Wives For Domestic Violence

46 Million Spaniards, 56 women killed per annum

 

24.5 Million Australians, 52 women killed per annum.

 

I wonder how many men have either been killed, or subjected to partner abuse in the same time.

 

Men might be more primitive in their actions, but women, who as a type are more verbal than men, do more damage with their sharp tongues.

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

...We all know that sort of thing could go on, but those personalities have little recourse to clearing their name...

...that doesn't just apply to the famous.

 

...there is zero support for males who have suffered at the hands of females. To the point of ridicule...

So true, Pete.

 

The pendulum always swings too far each way. It took enormous work and sacrifice to start the process of improving women's rights. I am proud to have played a small part in that movement, but once it gained momentum it became unstoppable. Heaven help those innocent males who get in the way.

 

Management tends to attract sociopaths, who are clever enough to conceal their true nature and activities.

 

In the workplace I have had several excellent female bosses, but also a couple who did enormous damage to me and others. No amount of legislation and litigation can prevent a cunning sociopath from abusing the system.

 

Although I've not suffered abuse within marriage, the workplace can be a more dangerous place. In that sense,

 

I totally agree with Pete; the abuse is bad enough, but the real damage is done when your peers turn away.

 

... I suspect serious depression is common in a victim when they feel cut off from all support, and have added depression from peer ridicule. For males presently in such situations, it sounds a lot like the post war battered housewives where police and society turned their backs on victims.Times have changed for the better. But only for females.

[nomadpete]

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Jerry.

 

As for the workplace, all the aforementioned issues and influences DO apply to a workplace. The whole issue of cultural attitudes will affect interpersonal behaviour whether it is in a workplace or a home.

 

The vast majority of my career has been pleasantly fair and only rarely marred by poor behaviour (not MY behaviour, of course). Maybe that outcome is partly due to my sense of humour moderating my ego. A happy workplace seldom has any discrimination problems. Ego has a lot to do with bad behaviour.

 

 

[old man emu]

I'd say that the young girl who suicided at Katherine because of bullying was the victim of female cliquishness in the beginning.

 

 

[old man emu]

When I started this thread, I was thinking along these lines:

 

"On what basis? The words of several females who, having said nothing at the time of the alleged behaviour, have now jumped on the Weinstein bandwagon. One of these women had the temerity to say "I didn't even know it was sexual harassment." Another said that she spoke up despite the risk of not working "in a musical" again."

 

I was railing at the behaviour of adults whom one would think were mature enough to deal with unwanted advances. Surely they would have a handbag full of put-down lines by the time they reached their twenties.

 

However, I must confess to a bit of selective outrage which my conscience requires me to confess to.

 

Recently my daughter, who is now in her early thirties, revealed to my wife and I that when she was a young teenager she had to endure the unwanted attentions of the husband of an aunt's best friend. These incidents only happened when the family was gathered for the usual birthday and Christmas events. My daughter was too afraid to complain to her aunts or grandmother because the sleeze bag was "such a great guy", and my daughter believed that she would not be believed. She even thought that my wife would not take her seriously, and she couldn't tell me because I would have arrested the bastard and prosecuted him (being a cop and all).

 

As a result, my daughter removed herself from out nuclear family, and throughout her teenage years and twenties would have nothing to do with her aunts or grandmother. Her relationship with my wife strained to the breaking point. Despite her mental anguish, she made her way through high school to a high standard, and made sure that she was always in employment from the day after she finished her HSC. She had a few relationships and finally married, but has admitted that she should have been a runaway bride. Her husband encouraged (disciplined) her to complete a university degree and her work ethic has allowed her to rise in her professional position.

 

However, her mental scars could not be healed and she and her husband divorced - fortunately amicably. Then she started to get professional help for her condition, and that is the reason she has been able to tell us why she was like she was for the past 20 years. She has since remarried, to a bloke who we can see from her Facebook pictures, makes her happy. She still see the trick cyclist, but the broken relationship between her and my wife (her mother) is on the mend.

 

So for twenty irreplaceable years, my family has been suffering due to the behaviour of a "pants man", and the belief that a complaint from an innocent, unsophisticated young girl would not be accepted.

 

That's why I railed against adult women waiting years before jumping on a bandwagon. I reckon that our society and understanding of Right and Wrong in inter-gender relationships has developed beyond what it was twenty years ago. Now it is OK, nay imperative, that any victim of aggressive behaviour, be it sexual or psychological in nature, must be free to make complaint at the first opportunity, and for that complaint to be heeded and investigated. The penalty for such behaviour AND the penalty for falsely reporting such behaviour must be applied equally.

 

 

[facthunter]

How would the Catholic Arch Bishop have such vast knowledge of how wives behave.? Honour and obey. in a Patriarchal religion. Most of them are made up (pun intended) by MEN....Great try these days. It would not be fair though to assume and demand obedience, but some wives (most) rule the roost entirely. No if's or buts. You either put up with it or Push off. Nothing will ever change the Boss Lady if she's determined. and they Know how to hate. Hell Hath no fury like a woman scorned. As often said you can't live with them , and you can't live without them. Perhaps the last is questionable, but usually when you are getting married you aren't thinking (at all) or straight.. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I'd say that the young girl who suicided at Katherine because of bullying was the victim of female cliquishness in the beginning.

My most trusted female advisor says "they hunt in packs".

 

Males in groups can do some atrocious things as well.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Perhaps the Internet is giving these grubs too much anonymity.

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't do facebook or twitter.Nev

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

@old man emu, feel for you and your daughter and I don't think anyone disagrees that society should accept this ship happens too frequently and not dismiss or denigrate a complainant, but accept it. However, and I am sure you meant it, where the complainant is vexatious or has maliciously made false statements, they should be also pursued and not pursued just because the claim was not found to be true (for example, because of not enough evidence or maybe the gravity of the act was borderline but not deemed to be harassment - e.g. there is nothing against the law about someone making a genuine advance with harassment - such as asking them out for dinner or something.. remember the biggest dating site is still the office). I dunno about Aus, but if someone in private simply said something like, "I really like you and would like to have a good tie with you", by itself it is not harassment; if they do it publicly or aggravate it with threats to career, or are persistent after rejection, etc, then it becomes harassment, however, I would not berate young lady or man for bringing it to my attention as a complaint.

 

I have told both my children that if someone hassles them in any way - bullying, sexual or otherwise physical, no matter who it was, then they can come to me and I won't go off like a bull at a china shop but that we would work together to resolve it. My partner has been very careful to educate our kids about issues in the virtual world (my 11 yr old daughter was asked by a player of a kids online game if he could show her his private parts; my son has had some very offensive comments (not many).

 

20 years ago, it was thought most of that carp was done by strangers to the family although the stats showed it was mainly done by people known to the family/children. All we can do is educate our kids to identify and report it (daughter reported to the games administrators - son didn't even see the comments - we saw them and showed them to him to which it thankfully was water off a ducks back).

 

This thread has reminded me to reinforce the messages.. I personally think we should be a lot tougher than we are with criminals of this ilk...

 

 

[octave]

[ATTACH=full]2954[/ATTACH]

I see of course it is the women's fault. So this cartoon suggests that this is it is an industry where a woman should expect a man to shove his hand down her pants uninvited whilst working. How about this, if it is true that that is what should be expected in this workplace how about the notion that brave people (male and female) are prepared to speak out at great personal cost (a complainant, in this case, has received on twitter death and rape threats - on the public record) in order to change the nature of the workplace for the benefit of all of us.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you let little things upset you they will, and you may perceive them when no intention was there. There is however a line which can be drawn and the situation of POWER over others that can be and is abused. There is now a war on whistleblowers as the was/is a war on science. Shooting the messenger is not even slightly appropriate. Another cover up for advantage of the perpetrator(s) who get away with it because they are allowed to. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

I am actually sick of hearing people trying to justify the actions of some of these men.

 

In most cases these men are the senior person in the work place.

 

In many cases the women were junior at the time of the incident.

 

Even on this forum of supposedly mature intelligent people it appears that the women do not have the right to complain.

 

Women do not come forward immediately about sexual assault for many reasons which to them always seem valid at the time.

 

(And lets be honest, sticking your hand down some young ladies pants is sexual assault no matter what the justification. If it was my daughter he would probably only have one hand left.)

 

Even though we mere males might not understand it, that does not mean that their reasons for delay are invalid.

 

We must respect their right to do that as we must respect their right to come forward when they feel comfortable doing so.

 

As we see in so many places people feel safer in numbers so it is obvious to me that if a few people come forward then that could in the case of multiple offences encourage other women to follow suit and speak up.

 

We saw people coming to the Royal Commission into sexual abuse of minors by the churches 30 and 40 years after the event.

 

These Men have not been ridiculed the way these poor women have after 3 years.

 

Yes the alleged offender has a right to a fair trial, but the aggrieved women also have a right to have their stories heard as well.

 

I am not sure that there is an easy way to achieve both but we need to find one if possible because if these women's stories are proven then they deserve their day in court and they deserve to see their abusers punished.

 

 

[facthunter]

Sorry, but who is suggesting any of that is OK? nev